What's Tongue Got To Do with It?

[koolcar]

Having laboriously read thru the posts concerning the role of tongue arch in upper register playing I thought perhaps a fresh start from an objective engineering perspective might be useful. I put my confidence in science, not tradition, opinion or faith. I see elements of truth from both opposing sides...not neccesarily contradictory. For those that do not understand or trust science, please accept the fact that just because man cannot create a machine that reproduces a virtuoso does not mean that everything the virtuoso does does not follow well established laws of nature.

I think it is useful to visualize a simple model with an input and an output. Let's assume the input is the back of the throat with an airstream of some given pressure and velocity into the oral cavity. The output is some frequency of pressure waves caused by the vibration of the lips. For simplicity assume the lips are held in constant tension/compression...use any method you like!

First let's examine the important role of pressure, for any given lip tension/compression there is a critical pressure required to blow the aperture open. When this occurs there is a pressure drop across the lips and the aperture closes, in effect acting as an oscillating valve. This projects a series of pressure pulsations a some frequency down the horn.

Notice pressure is required to initiate lip vibration, increased lip tension/compression requires higher initial pressure and results in higher frequency vibration. Notice that the average velocity of the airstream did not change, but it is possible to increase the frequency of lip vibration by increasing lip tension/compression and initial pressure. Pressure did not cause the higher frequency vibration, but is the critical condition required to initiate vibration. I think everyone has observed doing ppp long tones that the pressure to start vibration is a little higher than to maintain vibration.

Now to the subject of controversy...what role if any the tongue plays in higher register playing. First let's examine raising the back of the tongue as many of us have done with straining for a high note, or lifting a heavy object...can lead to the grunting sound...is incorrectly referred to the throat closing...it's instinctive...and wrong. Here's why...raising the back of the tongue increases the velocity of air in the throat, by the time the airstream hits the aperture both velocity and pressure are reduced. This is nothing but a restriction...equivalent to squeezing a hose.

Now let's examine the tongue arched in the front of the oral cavity, air velocity is increased because the crossection area is reduced, this in turn increases the frequency of vibration of the lips. Yes, there is some pressure loss...but remember pressure is not the dominant variable, it is the condition to initiate vibration...and less pressure is neccessary to maintain vibration.

Conclusions?

Pressure is critical to initiate vibration, lesser role in steady state vibration of the lips.

Change in lips tension/compression w/ a corresponding change in critical pressure changes pitch

Changes in airstream velocity ala front tongue arch also changes pitch

Any combination of these may be used...it's a matter of efficiency, is it possible to play upper register w/o a tongue arch? Yes, but there is a practical limit of the strength of the embouchure, when coupled with increased airstream velocity at the aperture, range can be increased.
The tongue is also a useful aid in transitory, such as wide interval slurs, it takes greater effort to overcome the partials than to maintain a slot once it is reached.

I have many questions about Fluoroscopy studies done in the past...I consider them valuable anecdotal evidence, not scientific data.

What was the difference in tongue level for any given range for a specific player. What is the difference in tongue levels between players. I'm sure the use of the tongue is signifcantly different for wide intervals than for the same note in a chromatic scale into the upper register. Does the same player change tongue levels when the embouchure begins to fatigue? Is the tongue level different when articulating a specific note as opposed slurring into it?

Observing world class players moving their tongue in different registers does not constitute quantifiable evidence that tongue arch is absolutely necessary to play a specific note. Physical law does verify it can be an important aid.
_________________
Current Horns:
1973 Bach 37
1958 Reynolds Contempora
1975 Eterna Flugel
1886 Conn Cornet

[Clarino]

Here we go again.....

[deleted_user_fdb91a0]

I hate when people bring this up. Just stop...don't ever bring this topic up again....ever.


Ever.


EVER.

[_dcstep]

Koolcar,

Why don't you try it and then tell us if it works for you? We don't need another "science" project.

It works for more people than it doesn't. Also, it's not just an upper register thing, you use it in all registers, it just becomes most exaggerated in the very top registers.

So, I'd suggest trying it. If it doesn't work for you, then stop doing it. If it works for you, then do it some more. It's free as air and will not wreck your embouchure in the event it gives you no benefit.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[chopissimo]

Remember, bumblebees are not supposed to fly, according to our scientific knowledge...

Let's just play and enjoy the music, let's stop trying to explain everything!

Tongue arching: If it works, do it. If it does not, don't do it. If you don't know what to do, don't do anything!

If the sound comes out as you want, then the demonstration is made.
_________________
Fran�ois
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'48 Conn 22B New York Symphony
'68 Conn Director (still going strong!)

Playing "bop" is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing.
-- Duke Ellington

[swthiel]

[TrpPro]

[TrpPro]

[ADziuk]

Tongue has a LOT to do with trumpet playing. However, I have never really thought much about it. The tongue will go where it is supposed to if you learn to play music.
_________________
"Everyone should carefully observe which way his heart draws him, and then choose that way with all his strength."

[Dale Proctor]

How about a tongue piercing? Does the size/material of the stud affect tone and/or airflow? Extra mass, you know. How about double and triple tonguing - is it made more slow? And what if the stud is removed - does the hole affect playing?
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[mcamilleri]

I think there is too much focus on tongue arch affecting the air stream (not that there is much of an airstream in the high register anyway) and not enough consideration on how the placement of the tongue mechanically affects the lip aperture, teeth alignment, and jaw position.

In addition tongue arch has a crucial role to play in controlling cheek puff, which I think is totally overlooked. The tongue arch (which contacts the upper teeth) in combination with the mouthpiece pressing on the lips seals the air off from the cheeks so that they don't pull the aperture apart. With tongue arch you don't need as much cheek and corner effort to control the puff. As John Mohan so helpfully pointed out the tongue forms a channel for the air to the front of the mouth, directing it away from the molars and cheeks and this is IMO more important than any effect it might have on the pressure of the airstream or it's flow.

Sorry, I think your analysis of tongue arch is weak, as it only considers a narrow range of effects. IMO most of the explanations of how tongue arch physically works are barking up the wrong tree (and mine is nowhere near complete either!).

Tongue arch does work for some playing systems if it is used properly and balanced with other elements of playing. Just no-one seems to have a full understanding of why it works that can easily be communicated.

The single most important thing to be learned from this whole long-winded episode is that a forward tongue arch is what is needed for the high range in trumpet playing. Too many players stop with a mid-rear tongue 'EEE' which only works well into the mid register, after which all that is left is mouthpiece pressure. If you use tongue arch in your playing learn to use a forward arch!

Michael

PS Air pressure forcing the lips open is not the only way to initiate a buzz. A slightly open aperture can be forced to buzz by air flow through the lips causing a local drop in pressure between the lips. Once they touch then the buzz starts. This is a very common way to play in the low brass (though how relevant it is to high brass I don't know).

PPS John Mohan commented that on a low C you can move the tongue where you want. I can easily do the same on a high C - I don't need any tongue arch at all to play a good sounding high C. Not all ways of playing need to use much tongue arch.
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

[John Mohan]

Hi there,

I find that I can move my tongue around easily at High C, too. But I must maintain arch in the middle portion of my tongue on that C. When playing a High C and moving my tongue, it is the front area of my tongue that I am moving around.

I think that at this point in the register, the amount of air pressure or energy (whatever the physics guys want to call it) required isn't so high that the tongue needs to be all the way forward.

But by the time I get to G above High C and beyond, anyextraneous movement of my tongue changes the note.

By the way, I came up with a brilliant (if I do say so myself) experiment which has proven to me that indeed, the tongue channels the air in the upper register.

I had written previously of Claude Gordon having had several students who for whatever reason had embouchures where there would be gaps in the corners of their mouths when they would ascend into the extreme high register. You could actually see their teeth through the gaps as they played double high Cs.

Well, I wanted to try to replicate this to prove to myself that the tongue really does channel the air, which would mean that at least in the upper register, the "balloon analogy" (the idea that the air pressure is the same throughout the mouth cavity similar to a balloon when playing) would be a false analogy.

I tried to relax my corners to the point where I could spread them open and play with a visible gap, but I couldn't. But then came up with an idea that would test things accurately - two small-diameter hollow coffee-stirring straws! The plastic these straws are made of is of sufficient rigidity to keep them from being crushed by lip compression.

To perform the experiment, I first inserted the straws into each corner of my mouth, directing them between my teeth to the area of the middle of my mouth. I then (after almost choking from the straws tickling the back of my throat) proceeded to play a low C and work my way up to High C. As soon as I started playing, I could hear and feel with my finger tip the ssss of air coming out of each straw. As I ascended, the ssss grew stronger. By High C I would guestimate that more air was leaking out of each of the two straws then what was going through the mouthpiece.

Next, I repositioned the two straws so that they each went into the sides of my mouth, in the area between my molars and my cheeks (the area that I had previously hypothesized would not have much air pressure, if any at all on high notes, due to the tongue arching up and forward and creating a longitude-oriented canal that directs the air from the throat forward directly to the aperture, sealing off the rest of the mouth cavity).

In order to position the straws at the correct angle, they had to cross out in front in the shape of an X. It took a little maneuvering to finally get the mouthpiece set on my lips while the X of the straws went either over or under the mouthpiece (eventually I found that having the straws over the mouthpiece worked best for me).

I proceeded to play from a Low C to a High C again, and this time, there was a little air sssssisssing through the straws on the low notes (similar to when the straws were positioned directed into the middle of my mouth). But as soon as I ascended upward in range, all air movement through the straws ceased completely.

To confirm the results, I repeated the experiment with one straw, and as I played I moved it around in my mouth with my free hand, pivoting it, and inserting it more and less deeply - no funny comments please, this is science at its best!

Anyway, I found that on very low notes (Low C area), the leakage was about the same everywhere - though I could stop the leakage on Low C at will by manipulating my tongue - ifthe straw was inserted into the area between my molars and my cheek. If the straw was aimed toward the middle of my mouth it leaked no matter what I did.

I found that on middle range notes (about middle G to about an E above tuning C) the straw would stop leaking air as soon as I moved it to the area between my molars and my cheeks, but I could still get the straw to leak air ifI manipulated my tongue. But in this range, playing where my tongue natural goes, there was no available air pressure in the area between my molars and my cheeks. As soon as I moved the straw back to the middle area of my mouth, a lot of leaking occurred in this register.

Finally, when I played the upper register (High C and above), when the straw was inserted into the middle of my mouth, even more leakage occurred. As soon as I moved it to the side area (between my molars and my cheek), the leakage completely stopped. I found that I could not manipulate my tongue in any way to get the air to start leaking again as long as the straw was inserted into the side area of my mouth, without losing the note.

Anyone with a lot of time on their hands might want to try the experiment for themselves. All it takes are two coffee-stirring straws of the type found in my college cafeteria (these are round little stiff straws; not the typical flat-shaped coffee stirrer things), a trumpet and a mouthpiece.

I can't be sure everyone will have the same results. But I believe that anyone who has learned to properly control the air with their tongue will probably have similar results.

Two last observations:

1) I had never checked or noticed before, but I find that in what ever register I am playing in, my cheeks are soft. There is muscle tension in the area surrounding my lips, but I can pinch my cheek and flap it around when I play, both on low notes and on high notes. There clearly is not any muscle tension needed to keep my cheeks from puffing.

2) Dizzy Gillespie had enormous puffing cheeks when he played in all registers. So while I contend that he clearly could and did arch his tongue for high notes (we all do), he also didn't make a complete seal with his arching tongue. There was obviously air pressure escaping into the sides of his face. And he was most certainly a great player with lots of high notes. So it is not absolutely critical for the tongue to completely channel the air. But you'll be prettier if it does!

Well, that's that.

I'm going to throw this info into a separate thread as well, because I think it’s the most important research ever done regarding trumpet playing, brass playing, music, even humanity, so those that aren't interested, be forewarned, don't click.

I am always amused at people complaining about the existence of threads that they themselves chose to read...

Sincerely,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[mcamilleri]

John, thanks for taking the trouble of confirming for yourself what I have found to be true about the tongue arch and cheek puff. It puts a whole new spin on the role of tongue arch doesn't it?

If you didn't use the tongue in this way then as you ramped up the air pressure for the high register you would need more and more facial and corner tension to control the cheek puff, much of which would be motion that would tend to pull the lip corners into a 'smile' and be physically exhausting. Using the tongue in the way you described relieves the air pressure on the cheeks and these muscles and lets the facial and lip muscles focus (pun intended) on creating a vibrant and responsive lip aperture.

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

[koolcar]

Great experiment...all you need to do is put a vid on your website...or funniest home video!

I hesitated to get into the discussion of the tongue channeling airflow because I'm not aware of any studies. Makes perfect sense, controlling leakage and channeling air at the aperture is certainly more efficient. A diagram would be most helpful...if I visualize correctly the arch is up into the upper molars and moves forward w/ increasing register....does the forward portion of the tongue touch the bottom teeth?

One other point to add...Mark Van Cleaves comments on oral resonating cavity where the volume is matched to the note is well grounded in acoustics...not sure how large of an effect...but legitimate nevertheless
_________________
Current Horns:
1973 Bach 37
1958 Reynolds Contempora
1975 Eterna Flugel
1886 Conn Cornet

[kalijah]

koolcar wrote:

[iambrassman]

I have a better method than tongue arch.

To increase air velocity as it hits my lips I do the following -- and suggest you all do the same:

1) Cover your ears and nostrils with duct tape, and do the same with any other bodily orifice that could leak air.
2) Wrap your torso tightly with ace bandages, coat them with two layers of fiberglass tape, and liberally douse with a hardening epoxy.
3) Insert an air-compressor hose into a lower-extermity bodily orifice of your choice (you only have 1 that a hose will fit into -- not mentioned out of the delicate nature of it's designation).
4) Set the compressor to 90 P.S.I. (yes, most will go to 120 psi+, but we didn't wrap you in kevlar, sheesh!)
5) Blow the dubba C like never before.

I'd like to know how it works for everyone.
_________________
Jim "IAmBrassman" Utley
Callet Jazz 0.470" /
Greg Black made John Blount Personal Mpc

[kalijah]

How do you know you wont get a REALLY loud middle C?

.

[iambrassman]

Oh, I forgot to mention... I superglue a plastic shoe-horn to the bottom of my tongue to make sure it stays arched -- and I put a hose-clamp around my lips and crank it down tight. If that doesn't do it, I'll put two hose-clamps around my lips.

That'll make it a double-c, right?
_________________
Jim "IAmBrassman" Utley
Callet Jazz 0.470" /
Greg Black made John Blount Personal Mpc

[kalijah]

If you can artificially crank down the lips, you wont need the shoe-horn.

[koolcar]

Dizzy for Gillespie's advice for playing high...tighten the a**hole!

Sounds silly...butt if you don't...you won't play high for long! :lol

There is plenty of evidence that increasing velocity changes pitch, but there is some confusion between supplying pressure and velocity...we usually do both at the same time. Playing loudly involves supplying greater air flow volume, two things happen...we blow harder that increases air pressure and velocity, and we blow that aperture more open and the pitch goes flat unless you compensate.
_________________
Current Horns:
1973 Bach 37
1958 Reynolds Contempora
1975 Eterna Flugel
1886 Conn Cornet