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Is this an Imperial?



 
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:27 pm    Post subject: Is this an Imperial? Reply with quote

Seller fails to mention if Imperial is stamped on this one, and trumps it up as some mysterious Committee prototype, but all the details on this horn screams pre-Committee Imperial to me.

Any experts care to weigh in?

Sold for $650... a good price for an Imperial that is stamped as such. I was scared it was a valueless frankenhorn though. Can't afford to lose money on every horn I buy and try...
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missmybaby
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call laying off that one. The seller was also very clear about no returns, That doesn't help get you past the vagueries...
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Ed Lee
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The blurb says work done on leadpipe, but are my eyes deceiving me as the photos show approx 1/4' wide ding on leadpipe approx area of valves.
Otherwise it looked like it went around the block a few times and not given due TLC.
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mpo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The valve block is from a Handcraft Imperial without a doubt. There is nothing Committee about it. The biggest indicator is the "block" style bracings between the valves. Another indicator is the placement of the slide pull knobs. Committee's, both Handcraft and later, have a single pull knob that is aligned in the center of the slide. The third slide finger ring is from the wrong generation and is actually a post Handcraft Committee ring - most likely a replica. The leadpipe appears to be Imperial as well as the bracings. As far as the bell? I have no clue, not enough pictures.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trptanspt - another ebay seller I will avoid from here on out. Make a list, fellas, check it twice. Thanks for the heads up. Very greasy description all the way through.
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ConnArtist
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for weighing in. I can officially withdraw the need to kick myself for passing it up now!

I spotted it within two hours of seller listing it and was tempted to hit the BIN trigger. $750 BIN is just under what a legit Imperial goes for these days, but with seller not indicating Imperial is stamped on bell, I can only guess it's an Imperial with a replaced bell from who-knows-what. Which would seem to ruin collectability/value if/when resell. For $650 sale price, if it turns out to be a heckuva player, who cares, but the *if* is always a worry with buy-to-try!

Now if it was a #3 bore... I just might have done it anyway.

It's amazing how many sellers are trying to cash in on the Committee's coat-tails. I have seen all kinds of things with descriptions of being very "Committee-like". Maybe I should describe the Coprion cornet I need to sell that has red-rot on its leadpipe as having a very Committee-like leadpipe.
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RogersBrass
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can offer some Martin information that will help clarify the Imperial / Committee topic.

The pre-Committe, and post-Committee Martin trumpets are two seperate model lines..with approximately 1939 being the division.

When the Martin Committee was introduced in 1939..it had a more modern styling from the previous Handcraft models..it had a more sleek, but very plain look.... including the Imperial.

The Martin trumpet in this eBay sale is a post-Committe horn..certainly not any kind of a Committee prototype. The photos are poor for sure.

The earlier Martin trumpets from the 1920s were more of narrow design....but there was an evolution to wider configurations leading up to 1939. The hottest time frame for high value Martin Handcraft trumpets is 1937 to 1939..up to the Committee introduction. This is when Renold Schilke was playing Martin Handcraft trumpets in the Chicago Symphony as assistant principal to Elden Benge..when Schilke was actually working with Martin on their trumpet model line.

The pre-Committee Handcraft Imperial was a Bach 37 clone (but with a reverse leadpipe)..with nickel trim and outer slides..and some models even had a "37" stamped on the bell. These Imperials had ornate styling and engraving, and adjustable stop rods on the main tuning slide.
The pre-Committee Handcraft Standard was a French Besson type all yellow brass horn (but also with a reverse leadpipe), and with ornate styling, engraving, and adjustable stop rod on the main slide. These were both sold as trumpets with status as high end professional horns.

The 1937 to 1939 pre-Committe Handcraft trumpets are today in limited supply, and should not be lumped in with post-Committee Martin Imperials that were sold as intermediate level trumpets...but no doubt of very high quality.

I do believe the Martin Handcraft logo has it's own history... but anyone looking at an earlier Martin Imperial trumpet should determine if it is pre- or post-Committee horn. They are not the same model.
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supportlivejazz
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of disagree with much of what has been posted. I seem to recall early style double tab pulls on a couple of the Handcraft Committees I have had. The serial number absolutely makes this a pre-Committee horn... not post Committee, I think. The seller listed this 2-3 times before it sold. I think the engraving of the owners name did not help. Chances are, if the leadpipe wasn't trashed it is probably a pretty good horn.Or unless it's really a FrankenMartin. But if it came from Martin in the 1930s and it's not a Dansant type horn, then it was possibly quite a nice horn. I would have wanted better photos, some more info and photos of the bell... that kind of info before I sprung for that much cash. The 3rd slide ring is a later version than is found on the Handcraft Imperials and Handcraft Committees. Anyway, I have a right to be wrong, but that's what I see.

I was tempted to throw an offer at this. I did communicate with the seller the first time it was listed... mostly about the engraving on the bell. Decided to lay off so I never followed with several more questions that I had.
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RogersBrass
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK....this is bringing up the Martin serial number debate...but it doesn't matter anyway.

The serial number does not "absolutely" show anything...it just depends on who's serial number list you want to use.

The issue is that Martin Handcraft trumpets changed from the ornate styling (sculpted ferrules, deluxe engraving, etc.) to the plain "modern" style at the time the Committee was introduced...in fact the first Committees were very plain (without the distinctive water keys)..and the Martin Committee, Imperial, and Standard all looked the same around 1939-1940.

I did take a closer look at the eBay photos of the Martin trumpet..comparing it to a photo of a 1940 Committee, and an early 1940s Martin Standard on the Dallas Music site...they all look about the same at first glance..the Committee has single pull knobs..the Standard has double knobs on the first slide, and a single on the second slide...the eBay photo has double knobs on both slides.....the Committees changed to the some more distinctive features later on....that is why Martin Committees made later into the 1940s are of higher value than the first issue models.

The Dallas Music site does make reference to a 1938 Martin Catalog introducing the Martin Committe trumpet..and the catalog makes reference to Ren Schilke, and Rafael Mendez playing Martin trumpets.
I can confirm this with conversations I had with Renold Schilke 40 years ago..and a 1937 Schilke designed Martin Handcraft that I owned.

I am keeping an open mind for a 1938 (?) Handcraft Committee trumpet to show up with the early ornate fittings.
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tranqB
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:53 pm    Post subject: Martin Imperial vs Committee Reply with quote

I would like to put my 3 cents in the mix.
I have a 1936 Martin Deluxe Imperial, 2 1939 Martin Deluxe Committees, 1 1946 Martin Committee, 1 1954 Big bore Martin Committee.
The pre-1939 Martin Imperial is completely different than the post 1939 Martin Imperial. The primary differences are the bottom sprung valves, the one piece casings with no baluster, reverse lead pipe and short throw valves. The post 1939 Imperial is definitely a student model with top spring valves, standard leadpipe, standard throw valves. The 1936 Imperial sounds very, very dark...with a sound very close to a Committee except darker if you can imagine that. The 1939 Committees are 5 ounces lighter than the Committees with the trombone style water keys. The Committees from both periods sound nearly identical with that amazing full, smooth tone.
Hope this helps
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ChuckNorrisOfTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no.... imperials look like this:



yours looks nothing like this one
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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