• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

pre set lip curl/tension or not for those with Cupids bow?



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
slee331
Regular Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 81
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: pre set lip curl/tension or not for those with Cupids bow? Reply with quote

Though I am aware many people do curl their upper lip, ala Balanced Embouchure, but it seems the best screamers really do very little by way of pre-playing embouchure setting before playing.

Anyone care to comment?

I have a fairly significant cupids bow/protruding upper lip and for longer than i can remember, it seemed a very tight upper lip curl was the way to go, but based on further reading and observation, it seems that actually the opposite, not a full pucker per se, but more going with a more natural setup seems to provide more cushion, more resonance, a more consistent setup and is advocated by some on the forum with a cupids bow as the way to go.

Any experiences you have with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
_________________
"I believe that playing the trumpet is one means of growing mentally and of continuing to grow, of seeking the truth, and of meeting all challenges that we have to meet."
- 1975 CLINIC ADDRESS by Prof. William A. Adam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fox
Veteran Member


Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 361
Location: fla

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like you want to know if anyone with a cupid's bow has really great range. And how did they get there?

From the lack of responses it seems like it's more of a cupid's curse. And just in time for Valentine's Day.

For what it's worth, I have a cupid's bow. I do pre-set lip curl during practice from time to time, but just as an exercise. It feels good and makes things work a little better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leadtpt1955
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 220
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry about this stuff so much! Put the mouthpiece on your face where it feels comfortable and gets a good sound and go and practice!! Range is the result of correct playing habits. A great range expanding exercise that I got from Roger Ingram is this:

Play harmonic glissando at pppp from C to High C and back 3 times.

Rest.

Play harmonic glissando at pppp from C# to High C# and back 3 times.

Rest.

Play harmonic glissando at pppp from D to High D and back 3 times.

Rest.

Continue as high as you can go.


The secret is in playing them very softly and getting the feel of the notes in the upper register. You can add volume later when you own these notes at a soft dynamic.

If you've got a Cupid's Bow or not makes no difference! Does the lip tissue vibrate and you get a good sound? Great! Then you can play the trumpet and work on range!

Thus endeth the lesson!
_________________
Rick

Adams A4 Trumpet
Adams Sterling Silver Bell Flugelhorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yankeesstink
Veteran Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Acton, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FULL DISCLOSURE: I know this is a dumb question....I was an accounting major.

However, what exactly is a "harmonic glissando?"
_________________
Harrelson Bravura Bb & C Trumpets
Blessing B154-RT Flugelhorn
Yamaha YTR-6810S Piccolo Trumpet
Yamaha YCR-2330 Cornet
1970's Olds Recording Trumpet
Various Olds Ultratone "G" Bugles
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leadtpt1955
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 220
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yankeesstink wrote:
However, what exactly is a "harmonic glissando?"


It's a glissando (or smear) that touches on each of the partials of the harmonic series between two notes. So a C to High C glissando would include the notes C-E-G-Bb-C and going down C-Bb-G-E-C, and so on.
A D glissando (using 1st valve) would be D-F-Ab-Bb-C-D.

Playing alternate fingerings (eg: using 123 valves in lieu of just 2nd valve for F#) adds a bit more resistance to your equipment and also increases the number of partials being played giving it more of a scale-like feeling. This makes it a bit easier not to get "hung up" on any one partial on the way up or back down.

Clear as mud?
_________________
Rick

Adams A4 Trumpet
Adams Sterling Silver Bell Flugelhorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yankeesstink
Veteran Member


Joined: 01 Dec 2007
Posts: 139
Location: Acton, Massachusetts

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it!

Thanks for the help.

Mark
_________________
Harrelson Bravura Bb & C Trumpets
Blessing B154-RT Flugelhorn
Yamaha YTR-6810S Piccolo Trumpet
Yamaha YCR-2330 Cornet
1970's Olds Recording Trumpet
Various Olds Ultratone "G" Bugles
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LeeC
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 5730

PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: pre set lip curl/tension or not for those with Cupids bo Reply with quote

slee331 wrote:
Though I am aware many people do curl their upper lip, ala Balanced Embouchure, but it seems the best screamers really do very little by way of pre-playing embouchure setting before playing.

Anyone care to comment?

I have a fairly significant cupids bow/protruding upper lip and for longer than i can remember, it seemed a very tight upper lip curl was the way to go, but based on further reading and observation, it seems that actually the opposite, not a full pucker per se, but more going with a more natural setup seems to provide more cushion, more resonance, a more consistent setup and is advocated by some on the forum with a cupids bow as the way to go.

Any experiences you have with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


"Rolling in" is a much over-rated concept. Especially with the top lip. It is possible to play the highest of notes with little to no contraction of any upper lip muscle fabric within the cup of the mouthpiece.

Rolling in the upper lip is not consistent with maintaining a sound on a note above the staff. You can push the lip closer to the lower lip but actually rolling it in will always result in a cut-off of tone. This is about as basic of a law as you can find in embouchure study.

Try it! Roll in your upper lip after starting a G top of staff. I don't care how you set your lips if any kind of curl in occurs beyond just the mildest you will get no sound.

So theories about upper lip "roll in" must relate only to the initial set up of the mouthpiece. Once you blow a note in the upper register and try and roll in your upper? Sound cuts off. Predictable as sunshine.

You can "roll in" your lower lip on the fly but even this movement should be reduced and becomes irrelevant upon reaching some upper register note. Probably over a High C.

My idea is that lower lip "roll in" can pull a lower register setting up to the top of the staff. So it's usage is probably only within the realm of connecting registers. Not for playing especially high notes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 8231
Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee, rolling in cutting off sound is an embouchure specific thing. For some players w/ certain embouchure types, it's exactly what they need to do to ascend!

Anyway, a safe bet for the O/P is this:

whatever you do with your face, pre-set it that way before you take a breath, take your breath w/ your face in the same position having already placed your mpc, and keep the air moving with no pause after finishing your inhale. The pre-set face bit may feel awkward at first, but it's a needed skill anyway so might as well practice it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Moshe Mizrachi
Veteran Member


Joined: 11 Dec 2009
Posts: 125
Location: Clarksville, Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: pre set lip curl/tension or not for those with Cupids bo Reply with quote

LeeC wrote:

"Rolling in" is a much over-rated concept. Especially with the top lip. It is possible to play the highest of notes with little to no contraction of any upper lip muscle fabric within the cup of the mouthpiece.

Rolling in the upper lip is not consistent with maintaining a sound on a note above the staff. You can push the lip closer to the lower lip but actually rolling it in will always result in a cut-off of tone. This is about as basic of a law as you can find in embouchure study.

Try it! Roll in your upper lip after starting a G top of staff. I don't care how you set your lips if any kind of curl in occurs beyond just the mildest you will get no sound.

So theories about upper lip "roll in" must relate only to the initial set up of the mouthpiece. Once you blow a note in the upper register and try and roll in your upper? Sound cuts off. Predictable as sunshine.

You can "roll in" your lower lip on the fly but even this movement should be reduced and becomes irrelevant upon reaching some upper register note. Probably over a High C.

My idea is that lower lip "roll in" can pull a lower register setting up to the top of the staff. So it's usage is probably only within the realm of connecting registers. Not for playing especially high notes.


As proven in the research by Donald Reinhardt,
people who have upstream embouchures will curl the upper lip under the lower lip a little bit.
People who have downstream embouchures will curl the lower lip under the upper lip a little bit.
The higher you play, the more that one lip curls under the other lip to cause greater deflection of the airstream inside the cup.

Moshe Mizrachi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group