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Jinbao piccolo (John Packer)


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bach_again
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:58 am    Post subject: Jinbao piccolo (John Packer) Reply with quote

Hey all,

Just posting my initial impressions of the JP 154 rotary Bb/A piccolo trumpet. It was bought from John Packer in England. I bought this after reading Gordon Hudson's great reviews and play tests. I believe Trent Austin pitched in on trumpet master about this horn and agreed that for the money it was good! I believe these are Jinbao made - it looks exactly like the "international sound" piccolo that Gordon bought from the States.

I only got the horn on Monday night and I have not gigged it yet. I am not a pro player either... not by a long shot

Before you watch, some apologies...

The sound quality is bad - my phone's microphone is poor.
The video glitches near the end.
The playing... sorry Charpentier!
The last D-E trill... the D slide wasn't tuned, and the trill is ropey!
Overall pitch - a little flat - I was practising with my young brother who plays a flat Eb tuba. (he also plays double Cs, aged 12. whyyyyy!)

Concert Bb maj, on the tight Bb slide:


Link


Anyway, I made sure the returns policy was decent (John Packer are first class) and I ordered one. I was wary that it would have that famous major 7th octave! Yuck!

My thoughts:

I was very impressed upon opening the package. Fit and finish was superb. It comes with 3 Bb pipes (loose, medium and tight blow) and 1 A pipe. At the moment I am preferring the tight Bb pipe.

Intonation (tested against recordings, a tuner, a brass group with my siblings and my ear).

Low D is pretty sharp, the 3rd slide fixes this totally.
High D is a little flat.
Low G on 4th is flat.
Low F 1+4 is spot on!

I played a Getzen Eterna picc for a while, so to make comparisons between piston and rotary complicates measures even more, but my thoughts:

I prefer the sound of the rotary, it plays excellently in Bb (the Eterna was nearly un-usuable in Bb for me). It plays fine in A, however (for me) it doesn't have a nice open pedal C on any shank as some piccolos do. This could be a weakness in my playing.

Rotary valves are beautiful! I am starting to adjust to the 4th rotor on the 4th finger.

I will update with some more clips and thoughts if anyone wishes - I am performing "Let the bright seraphim" next Wednesday - first rehearsal on Friday. I will know more of the instrument then! Also... Wynton's interpretation and playing with Kathleen Battle is STUNNING!! Wow, such beautiful tone, articulation, timing, ornamentation. Wynton is a master!

This is a superb resource:

http://www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/Piccolo%20Trumpet%20Guide.html

Gordon Hudson's reviews (and much better playing!!):

http://www.hudson.nu/trumpet/cheap-piccolo-trumpet.html

Here is my initial blog of this:

http://jazzvine.blogspot.com/2010/06/piccolo-trumpet-video-clip.html

Thanks guys, take care!
Mike
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camel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest with you: I would never put something like that on youtube. Not when it's meant seriously. If it's all a joke, well then it's suitable.
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lolwhat
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

camel wrote:
To be honest with you: I would never put something like that on youtube. Not when it's meant seriously. If it's all a joke, well then it's suitable.


Camel, I just happened to watch this video and I'm afraid I must disagree with you.
Understandably a perfect performance is the best way to demo a new instrument.
No performance is perfect however, and this video works fine for what it is.
To judge a quick demo by professional recording standards is a folly, and one which conversely highlights your lack of professionalism. This is my first post on this forum, and I hope your pseudo-troll behavior is not the way everyone gets on here. If so, I won't be staying long.

Thanks, keep posting vids, Bach_Again.
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Trptca
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..........
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Youri le god
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

camel wrote:
To be honest with you: I would never put something like that on youtube. Not when it's meant seriously. If it's all a joke, well then it's suitable.


Ignore this. It's refreshing that someone comes on here with a review of a horn AND a video of them playing it. THANK YOU. If anyone wants to criticise why do they never do it by posting a video of themselves???

I've been looking at these for a while. I've seen Gordon's videos and now yours. I'll hopefully be down John Packer's way soon to try one out. I also fancy the Eb/d I've heard good things about that as well.

Many thanks for the video and review.
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camel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Youri le god wrote:
camel wrote:
To be honest with you: I would never put something like that on youtube. Not when it's meant seriously. If it's all a joke, well then it's suitable.


Ignore this. It's refreshing that someone comes on here with a review of a horn AND a video of them playing it. THANK YOU. If anyone wants to criticise why do they never do it by posting a video of themselves???

I've been looking at these for a while. I've seen Gordon's videos and now yours. I'll hopefully be down John Packer's way soon to try one out. I also fancy the Eb/d I've heard good things about that as well.

Many thanks for the video and review.



Testing an instrument is just a little bit more then honking some notes, and call it a test.

That's my opinion. Just like you have yours. That's why this is a forum. To critisize. I meant no disrespect. Just to give my point of view.

So don't kill me for a friendly meant opinion. And for the name of Pete. Don't act like a dramaqueen....
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Youri le god
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dramaqueen? lol Get a grip mate.
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johnsboy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I meant no disrespect."

Whether you meant it or not you managed to clearly convey it. I see you're from Holland - perhaps we can attribute your seeming lack of grace to English being a second language for you. I hope that was the case. Either way, calling someone who finds your remarks offensive a drama queen compounds your "linguistic faux pas". We have spell check and grammar check - perhaps Microsoft could come up with a social graces check.
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butxifxnot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quality of the recording notwithstanding (I think the quality is making you sound bad. I suspect that sounded pretty good live. I believe that's what camel's point was: the aesthetic of the video was rather poor overall because of a lot of external factors):

Check the tuning on more of the notes. The high C was VERY flat relative to the rest of the horn. That's not a note you want out of tune.
Check all the notes' tuning in their true slots. Play a note, hold it, let it settle into its sweet spot and then put it against a tuner. Repeat for important, theoretically in-tune notes.

The list of equipment that thing came with is impressive, though! Good luck with the horn.
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Last edited by butxifxnot on Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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camel
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsboy wrote:
"I meant no disrespect."

Whether you meant it or not you managed to clearly convey it. I see you're from Holland - perhaps we can attribute your seeming lack of grace to English being a second language for you. I hope that was the case. Either way, calling someone who finds your remarks offensive a drama queen compounds your "linguistic faux pas". We have spell check and grammar check - perhaps Microsoft could come up with a social graces check.


Well, indeed I was giving a friendly meant advise. And again: it's just an opinion, what this forum is meant for. Discussing things. Perhaps I was rude. Didn't intend to be rude to the topicstarter. Just giving advise. As we all do here. (But my apologies to the topicstarter for unintentionally beeing rude).
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsboy wrote:
...I see you're from Holland...

My favourite quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M

I'm one of them too,
MvW.
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tk1031
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once heard that to play the soprano part you have to be brilliant, or crazy.

Good on you for the video, and congrats on the new horn. How do the valves feel? Did the guy you bought it from do any work on it before the sale (valves, alignments, whatever).
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does not surprise me! Mr. Kanstul said that he decided to get out of Student instruments when he say how fast the quality of the Japanese trumpets was coming up in such a short time! Mr. Kanstul built student trumpets and other stuff for Besson mostly in order to train his current employee's!!! Far better to cut ones teeth on another companies product then on anything with your name on it! Smart move if you ask me! Plus the cost difference to produce a student trumpet properly versus a pro trumpet is almost identical but the mark-up and profit margin is much higher with professional models! You see this all the time in the Auto Industry as well two vechiles with nearly identical cost to manufacture one might sell for $17,000.00 the other for $60,000.00 which one would you rather sell the most of given the choice?!?!?
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like I should reply to each poster.

camel wrote:

To be honest with you: I would never put something like that on youtube. Not when it's meant seriously. If it's all a joke, well then it's suitable.


camel - if you read my post you will see the only misleading part is the title of the video which said "JP 154 Piccolo Trumpet Test #1" - you obviously missed the parts where I said I was NOT a pro player, the sound quality was NOT good, the pitch was flat etc... I certainly was offended by your post, but perhaps there is a language barrier. I see you meant no harm in your "friendly advice", so though I was offended I now am not. I have also changed the misleading title of the video.

lolwhat wrote:

camel wrote:
To be honest with you: I would never put something like that on youtube. Not when it's meant seriously. If it's all a joke, well then it's suitable.


Camel, I just happened to watch this video and I'm afraid I must disagree with you.
Understandably a perfect performance is the best way to demo a new instrument.
No performance is perfect however, and this video works fine for what it is.
To judge a quick demo by professional recording standards is a folly, and one which conversely highlights your lack of professionalism. This is my first post on this forum, and I hope your pseudo-troll behavior is not the way everyone gets on here. If so, I won't be staying long.

Thanks, keep posting vids, Bach_Again.


I agree - the sound quality was pretty bad, but you got it - I was just excited to share. Welcome to the forum btw!

Youri le god wrote:
camel wrote:
To be honest with you: I would never put something like that on youtube. Not when it's meant seriously. If it's all a joke, well then it's suitable.


Ignore this. It's refreshing that someone comes on here with a review of a horn AND a video of them playing it. THANK YOU. If anyone wants to criticise why do they never do it by posting a video of themselves???

I've been looking at these for a while. I've seen Gordon's videos and now yours. I'll hopefully be down John Packer's way soon to try one out. I also fancy the Eb/d I've heard good things about that as well.

Many thanks for the video and review.


Thanks for the support! I was speaking to Jon and there is a new picc (valved) in the works, a new D/Eb (which will be slow to come out - they don't sell a lot of these). They also have a Bb with a Smith Watkins leadpipe - it would be fun to try one of these!


johnsboy wrote:

"I meant no disrespect."

Whether you meant it or not you managed to clearly convey it. I see you're from Holland - perhaps we can attribute your seeming lack of grace to English being a second language for you. I hope that was the case. Either way, calling someone who finds your remarks offensive a drama queen compounds your "linguistic faux pas". We have spell check and grammar check - perhaps Microsoft could come up with a social graces check.


johnsboy - you are very right. It was clearly conveyed, and perhaps a linguistic barrier was partly at fault. Also, lol @ the Microsoft social graces check... do you reckon you could get these for some people I have worked with?

butxifxnot wrote:

Quality of the recording notwithstanding (I think the quality is making you sound bad. I suspect that sounded pretty good live. I believe that's what camel's point was: the aesthetic of the video was rather poor overall because of a lot of external factors):

Check the tuning on more of the notes. The high C was VERY flat relative to the rest of the horn. That's not a note you want out of tune.
Check all the notes' tuning in their true slots. Play a note, hold it, let it settle into its sweet spot and then put it against a tuner. Repeat for important, theoretically in-tune notes.

The list of equipment that thing came with is impressive, though! Good luck with the horn.


Thank you for your advice Re: tuning, I am going to spend the day with the tuner, hopefully get that C tamed I am inexperienced as piccolo playing goes, so I appreciate any advice.

tk1031 wrote:

I once heard that to play the soprano part you have to be brilliant, or crazy.

Good on you for the video, and congrats on the new horn. How do the valves feel? Did the guy you bought it from do any work on it before the sale (valves, alignments, whatever).


I have heard the same quote, and indeed a lot of them are mad I am not sure if John Packer did anything. I do know that they work closely with the factory, sending guys over for testing and input I assume. From what I can see, the rotors do line up well, but rotors are new to me, so I am not entirely qualified on this subject! As for the feel of the rotors - they are very smooth. They felt a little slow at first but they seem to be bedding in. They still feel a little slow, but I haven't played rotors before! It seems like you need to be more precise with them.

Capt.Kirk wrote:

It does not surprise me! Mr. Kanstul said that he decided to get out of Student instruments when he say how fast the quality of the Japanese trumpets was coming up in such a short time! Mr. Kanstul built student trumpets and other stuff for Besson mostly in order to train his current employee's!!! Far better to cut ones teeth on another companies product then on anything with your name on it! Smart move if you ask me! Plus the cost difference to produce a student trumpet properly versus a pro trumpet is almost identical but the mark-up and profit margin is much higher with professional models! You see this all the time in the Auto Industry as well two vechiles with nearly identical cost to manufacture one might sell for $17,000.00 the other for $60,000.00 which one would you rather sell the most of given the choice?!?!?


Capt - that is interesting to know about the student models Kanstul made. Probably a good business decision. I hear even his basic student trumpet was superb... I would have been tempted at one time!

Thanks for watching and contributing. I will just say again my own personal apologies for anyone who was mislead into thinking this was a thorough "test" video. I did try to make it evident that this was MY first impressions, not Phil Smith's. Anyhow, maybe I will try to sort the audio out and post another video.

Kindly,
Mike
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tk1031
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somewhere I read here that Blackburn makes a leadpipe that will fit that horn, and that has corrected some intonation issues. Like I said, can't remember where I read it, and a different leadpipe may be BS, however, a lot of people on TH advocate changing leadpipes and mouthpieces before anything else, so maybe it could help. Still cheaper than a Scherzer Pic.

Nice to see your thick skinned. You'll make a great soprano player.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Gordon Hudson got a Blackburn pipe for his "International Sound" piccolo - the same horn essentially. These are basically Scherzer copies, so they do take the Scherzer replacement pipes. I have thought about the leadpipe change, and will only do so if 1) My playing actually warrants it 2) I use the horn enough and the final factor... that force of nature eBay...

Thick skinned, thick skulled... thick...

Take care!
Mike
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camel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bach_again wrote:


camel - if you read my post you will see the only misleading part is the title of the video which said "JP 154 Piccolo Trumpet Test #1" - you obviously missed the parts where I said I was NOT a pro player, the sound quality was NOT good, the pitch was flat etc... I certainly was offended by your post, but perhaps there is a language barrier. I see you meant no harm in your "friendly advice", so though I was offended I now am not. I have also changed the misleading title of the video.


I did miss some points. Perhaps just by reading not too carefully. My bad.

Still I think it's rather premature to record anything on an instrument you are not familiar with. I bet you sound better, on your normal axe, you are used to play. And then when you are more settled on the piccolo record something with it.
That would be more logical to me.

So I hope things got cleared now. I am way too lazy to start a bitchfight about music.
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

camel wrote:
bach_again wrote:


camel - if you read my post you will see the only misleading part is the title of the video which said "JP 154 Piccolo Trumpet Test #1" - you obviously missed the parts where I said I was NOT a pro player, the sound quality was NOT good, the pitch was flat etc... I certainly was offended by your post, but perhaps there is a language barrier. I see you meant no harm in your "friendly advice", so though I was offended I now am not. I have also changed the misleading title of the video.


I did miss some points. Perhaps just by reading not too carefully. My bad.

Still I think it's rather premature to record anything on an instrument you are not familiar with. I bet you sound better, on your normal axe, you are used to play. And then when you are more settled on the piccolo record something with it.
That would be more logical to me.

So I hope things got cleared now. I am way too lazy to start a bitchfight about music.


You are right, I was premature to record that, and it is an unfair representation of the instrument and myself. It was just out of excitement to have a new toy. Anyway, as I said - we are cool. There is no cause for a "bitchfight" whether you are too lazy for one or not.

Regards,
Mike
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camel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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trumpetmike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone else who uses cheaper recording equipment (mobile phone) to record himself on piccolo (usually for personal use - deciding which interpretation/mutage/ornamentation I prefer) I would strongly recommend placing it further away from you when you play piccolo. The microphones on phones (and cheaper equipment) are not great at recording piccolo trumpets, especially as you ascend (in both pitch and dynamics) - the latest couple of recordings I have done of myself (one of which is somewhere on youtube) have required me to put the phone on the other side of the room in order to avoid the distortion.
I did a few takes with the phone in different places in the room - the ones nearer me all had a similar sound distortion as you have suffered from.


As for the instrument itself - I have played a few John Packer instruments in the past and have yet to be even vaguely impressed by any of them - I hope this is one of the good ones that I have heard people talk about (but have yet to see for myself).
Personally, I will stick to my Eclipse piccolo
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