Nitrocellulose lacquer

[PakWaan]

I just bought a new guitar from the Gibson Custom Shop. While most guitar manufacturers nowadays use epoxy, like trumpet makers, Gibson still uses nitrocellulose lacquer on all the new instruments that come out of their Custom Shop.

This got me thinking - I understand there's a government fine/assessment that has to be paid to continue to use this environmentally unfriendly stuff, which discourages it's use without making it actually illegal. Obviously, Gibson is willing to incur this cost for their most expensive and custom instruments to make them sound as good as possible and the cost is certainly passed along to the consumer.

Why is there not a brass instrument re-finisher that has an arrangement somewhere to use this stuff on vintage horns, albeit at a higher cost, if the consumer is willing to foot the bill?


Oh, and even though it's not a trumpet, I feel compelled to post a photo so I don't break the "no photo then it didn't happen" rule. My new Gibson Les Paul Custom 1968 Re-issue:


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Taylor Chicago Standard • Getzen 900 Eterna Classic • Yamaha 731 flugelhorn
--- Sold everything else ---

[MikeyMike]

Yes, you can get it today but the chemical composition of "nitrocellulose lacquer" has changed over the years. If you can order a bare horn, or get a lacquer on stripped, someone will repaint your trumpet, your guitar or antique Heywood-Wakefield coffee table. But no matter how much you pay, you won't get the same finish used in the 30's, 40's, 50's. It's no longer made. At least according to a friend of mine in the paint business.
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Ahh... that old case smell.

[Hack001]

I've wondered that too. I love the look and feel of the old lacquer. The new epoxy stuff just seems so sterile.
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Practicing is for the insecure.

[VetPsychWars]

I'm on the other side. My hands eat the old stuff so I am very happy with epoxy.

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[shofarguy]

Beautiful guitar (or in shofar lingo, "gittith" )!!

I'm no guitar player, so the only wood finish experience I have never produced any music. But on cabinets, I like water-white lacquer.

On horns, I like whatever it is Zig is using, now. I'm told it isn't epoxy, but it's very clear and thin. It seems to have less effect on the sound of the horn than silver. The trumpet and flugel my friend Jerry has both have a lithe, light feel to them, whereas my silver horns have more weight to the sound and feel.

Of course, this is only felt and heard by the player, not the audience.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[crzytptman]

It could also be your level of confidence when you were playing them.
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[shofarguy]

[Tony Scodwell]

Zig has done several horns for me in his lacquer and I assumed it was epoxy. I'll have to ask him. It lasts very well and it really doesn't alter the sound in my opinion. Silver might a little and gold can go either brighter or darker in my opinion [which I respect]. The "pure" lacquer available from places like Allied seems to certainly smell like the old stuff. Doesn't last very well though and really needs to be forced dried. I use this for the occasional repair and touch up. Schilke did an extensive study on this topic years ago and with all participants blindfolded, came up with his set of conclusions. For me the bottom line is what the player wants and needs. If the PH is acid, go with gold. If you're in the military or like the look, you might need silver. Lacquer [epoxy] is a good finish for protection and doesn't change much, if any, characteristics of your sound.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808

[crzytptman]

[shofarguy]

[Fleebat]

What people almost always miss in this debate is that a finish doesn't just cover the body or parts of an instrument; once it's bonded (by plating or drying), it becomes part of the vibrating/tone-generating whole. So, just as a different type of metal or wood will generate and amplify the sound at different volumes and with different tonal characteristics, so will different finish material. Strip the finish from a horn (or guitar, or violin, etc.), and you will have changed the operative material of the instrument, and, thus, the sound.

I worked for Gibson in the late 80s, and for a longer time worked in the shop of guitar builder and internationally-known repair guru Joe Glaser. I have also researched and published extensively on guitarists and their equipment, and I have seen too much evidence of the difference nitro makes to believe that it doesn't apply its own character to an instrument - a different quality from what poly produces. In the early 90s, consulting for Warmoth Guitar Products in WA, I spent some time at their facility. They were extremely proud of their new, quarter-million-dollar UV finish machine; parts in one end, and fully-cured, finished parts out the other end in 15 minutes. At my insistence, they let me build a guitar from their parts, string it up and play it un-amplified and through an amp. We then dis-assembled it, ran the body & neck through the UV machine, and put it back together. The Warmoth guys kind of snickered as I finished stringing and tuning it, sure that they'd prove to me once and for all that the UV candy coating would make no (or little) difference.

At the first strummed chord, their faces dropped. They were stunned to hear the brittle, body-less sound we'd conjured by adding a rock-hard element to the parts.

Real nitrocellulous lacquer cures very differently from any kind of poly. Nitro "collapses" over time, settles into itself and actually becomes thinner. (You can paint it on thick enough so the middle of the paint layer never really does this - never actually "cures" 100%, at least not in a normal human lifetime... not a good idea.) As it settles, the nitro - which is now part of the vibrating surface, not just a covering for it - contributes to the vibration and reflectance - sound - in a certain way. Poly, on the other hand, cures rather quickly and stays in that state for, functionally, forever. And, as it's part of the vibrating surface also, it contributes its own qualities to the sound.

The reason Gibson and Fender and some other major guitar manufacturers (as well as a host of custom makers who usually operate under the legal radar) use the modern version of nitro on higher-end instruments (custom shop, etc.) is that, to the sophisticated ear, what nitro contributes has less impact on the instrument's original sound - and in some cases actually enhances it. Poly's effect is less disireable, sonically speaking, for the large majority of careful-listening players.

A guitarist whose priority is sound - and who has the ears and sensitivity to know the difference - typically cares more about that than they do about whether they can accidentally brush their shirt buttons over the instrument's surface without making a scratch. With trumpets, it's true that modern poly finishes are harder and will last longer, hold up to more abuse than lacquer. For many of us, that's a great quality if we're talking about a piece of furniture or a house exterior - something we're not listening to, but has little or nothing to do with what we need in an instrument. For me, while I play a couple horns that have poly finishes and like them, I understand that the poly on the outside is part of the sonic equation, and the instrument design (if it's worth a dang) should take that into consideration. Yamaha, with its newer horns, does an excellent job in that regard, IMHO. Bach (and I love Bachs, generally), not so much.

There are many trumpet players (some here, for example) who have a vintage horn re-fubished and/or refinished. The new finish will almost certainly be one or another kind of poly. They're thrilled that it looks shiny-new and doesn't react as easily to their chemistry. It doesn't scratch as easily, or change color as it ages. And to them, it sounds great (though, in the case of a re-furb, sonic differences can have many causes). But the vintage horns that I've heard before and after a nitro-to-poly refinish (many) have almost invariably lost some of the quality the owner/player loved about the vintage horn. All the experimentation & testing that went into the original design, the tweaks that got it ready for production, included the sound qualities that nitro would bring to the table. They were not designed to include a rock-hard poly finish. Again, whether plating or some kind of painted finish, what you bond to the metal becomes part of the instrument, and will affect the sound just as the other parts do. I believe this is why a vintage silver horn, when re-plated, sounds pretty much the same; the sonic qualities of the new finish match those of the old.

Rusty Russell

[shofarguy]

Rusty,

That was one of the best technical posts I've ever read on TH! Props to you!

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Capt.Kirk]

Very Interesting???? I was under the impression that one could put Poly Urethane or Epoxy Modified Lacquer on thin enough with todays formula's to not be an issue??? I guess I was mis-informed it happens? So todays Epoxies still have to be laid on thick like the Epoxy on my Olds trumpets from the 1970???

I have sprayed a lot of urethane based products over the years but not on instruments and it is so easy to work with. Is nitro cellulose harder to work with? Do you oven bake it or use heat lamps or hot air gun??????? How do you force dry it and how many coats do you put on? How much time between coats???? I might want to try Nitro Cellulose on my project. I was going to use oven cured epoxy but now you have my interest peaked???

I recall my roommate the one that died recently and was a guitar player and collector talking about Nitro Cellulose lacquer but to be honest it did not mean much to me at the time!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[VetPsychWars]

The epoxy lacquer on my restored horns is very thin. You barely know it's there.

Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

[crzytptman]

Wood will also absorb some of the material it's coated with. Brass will not. I've always thought that a raw horn sounds best. Plating with metal will not effectively deaden the resonant vibrations, where lacquer will to a degree. That's why some people say lacquer horns are "darker" - the higher overtones are dampened somewhat. I would never refinish a vintage horn!
But, all of this is subjective. I wanted my Celebration raw, but couldn't get it that way. The silver one I have was just such an awesome player, I couldn't put it down! It wouldn't matter if it was coated in peanut butter . . .
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[MikeyMike]

[Fleebat]

I remain convinced (and see the proof here in this thread) that many who join this argument fail to realize that ANY finish bonded onto a horn (or other instrument) becomes part of the operative component, not just a "covering."

Capt. Kirk, it seems your question mark key is stuck. Might want to check that. Oh... and in the way you used the word, "peaked" should be spelled "piqued." Then again, you're one of those who frequently writes about "chomping at the bit," which is an anatomical impossibility. (With a bit in its mouth, a horse cannot "chomp." That's the idea, actually. The horse can only mash the rear of the gums into the bit, which is called "champing." Horses champ at the bit. Now cut it out, before I have to get back on the soapbox and clean up the "carrot and stick" thing that everyone misuses.

Just sayin'...

RR

[trumq]

[Fleebat]

Ha! Good one (for all intents and purposes!).

Shall we delve into:

"with regards to" and "in regards to" (should be with/in regard to, or "as regards). "With regards" implies best wishes, as in sending one's regards.

Any others? Wanna go to the carrot and stick thing?

RR

[MikeyMike]

That's fine as long as it's fewer carrots and not less. Double winks.
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Ahh... that old case smell.