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skootchy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:24 am    Post subject: Olds Special Reply with quote

I was thinking of picking up a decent Cornet just to fool around with and I happen to run across an Olds Special which is in pretty good shape at a decent price. Not being familiar with this particular make/model I thought I would ask what you guys think about it. Is this a pretty good pro model Cornet worth restoring? I don't really have a need for a Cornet, just always wanted one to fool around with and complete my collection.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Special that I had was pretty trumpet-like. Maybe an Ambassador would be a better choice. Make sure that it has a modern cornet receiver, or you will need a special mouthpiece to fit the horn properly.
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skootchy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
The Special that I had was pretty trumpet-like. Maybe an Ambassador would be a better choice. Make sure that it has a modern cornet receiver, or you will need a special mouthpiece to fit the horn properly.

I have a three piece system with a couple of standard cornet backbores. (Giardinelli) Will it take those? I always liked the long model cornets.
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RNJTrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skootchy wrote:
Irving wrote:
The Special that I had was pretty trumpet-like. Maybe an Ambassador would be a better choice. Make sure that it has a modern cornet receiver, or you will need a special mouthpiece to fit the horn properly.

I have a three piece system with a couple of standard cornet backbores. (Giardinelli) Will it take those? I always liked the long model cornets.


If the serial# is lower than 189,611 it will require a lagre shank cornet mouthpiece. Olds 3 works, otherwise you will need to special order the piece...which can cost as much as the horn.

I've not tried the Olds Special, but the Super and Ambassador I had were trumpet-like. Fine players, mechanically great (those valves are hard to beat!).

Good luck!
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study888
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:48 am    Post subject: Olds Special Reply with quote

Hello Skootchy. Other than being a little more dressed up and looks better. There is not much differance sound wise in a Olds Special Cornet and a Olds Ambassador Cornet. I have owned both that were early 1960's model. Unless you are looking at the first make L.A. Olds Special. Totally differant animal. You will get a better buy, cost wise on the Olds Ambassador. You might want to wait for a good buy to come up on a late 1930's to any 1940's King Master Cornet. I have owned a nice Tri metal 60's make Olds Special. I now own two King Master cornets. A 1938/1948, all Brass ones. Most want the Sterling Bell ones,which drives the price up. The all Brass ones are great players. I bought the 1938 one recently off E-Bay, for total of $225.00. Had it's original case that works great, and all it's other original eqipment. Seller offered free shipping and seven day return policy. Other than some spot polishing, minor dent removal, chem clean ,and new valve kit. This 1938 King Master Cornet and my other 1948 King Master Cornet, will play for a lot more years. The Valves are the same and will interchange. Just stay away from any that has major Dent damage anywhere and on Bell Bow,around the End of Bell or missing it's Micro Tuner. The old worn out Laquer,that makes them look bad to the eyes, does not mean much. Ultra Pure Oil products work well on these older vintage King Master Cornets. Said all this to say this. These King Master cornets are very good players, and fit very nice in the hand. (IMHO) You got to go up to a Olds Recording,Opera,Mendez Cornets, to have as nice a sound and intonation, that the vintage King Master Cornet have. Not to sure about the later made King Super-20 King Masters Cornet models. But these late 1930's to late 1940's vintage King master Cornets were made to be around a long time. Good luck
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FLgargoyle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a big Olds fan, but I have to agree with the King Master. I picked up an old one on ebay (very cheap) and it's a great player. It's a little beat, but I like it so much I may spring for having it gone through. I bought about 10 old cornets, including Olds, before finding the Master.

If you're going to play cornet, even just fooling around, get a real cornet mouthpiece, like a Wick or a Curry. Otherwise you might as well just play trumpet. I never had a real cornet mouthpiece until I bought a fairly deep Curry 3VC- makes all the difference in the world.
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study888
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Olds Special Reply with quote

Hello Skootchy. Not trying to hijack your post and turn the whole topic to King Master Cornets. Flgargoyle,mention some mouthpieces He likes. I am using a Kanstul CG3 Cornet mouthpiece on my King Masters. It gives these Cornets a overall very balanced sound. The King 7M cornet m.p. will work also. But the CG3 plays the best for me. I have a Kanstul CG3 Trumpet mouthpiece for my 1976 King Golden Flair Trumpet. It plays much better for me, than it's King 7K/7M Trumpet mouthpieces. Let me stop here. This topic is mostly to be about Olds Special Cornets. I started out with the Olds/Conn Horns, but ended up with King/Reynolds Horns. To each his own.
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study888
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Olds Special Reply with quote

Another Cornet that is over looked,and will fill the Bill for a good basic Cornet. Is the Reynolds Medalist. I have played on a 1960's Fullerton Olds Trumpet and a 1960's Reynolds Medalist Trumpet. I liked the Medalist Trumpet better tone wise and build wise. The Medalist Reynolds models in Trumpet/Cornet are well made student instruments. I have seen some well kept Reynolds Medalist cornets with original case and eqipment. Sell on E-Bay at a cheap to fair price. Ole Lou on the Trumpet Master site. Has a great collection of Cornets. He likes his Reynolds Medalist Cornet,and gives good comments on its playing, etc.
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lmf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

study888,

Have you found any of the "new" Olds from the "new" company (manufacturing outsourced) in any way comparable to the old Olds from the original company?

Has anyone here compared the Blessing Artist 141 cornet (and Olds copy) to the ones made by the original Olds company? Are there other Blessing instruments of a few years past that were made on the old Olds specifications? Are they comparable to models of the company that now sells horns as Olds?

Best wishes,

Lloyd
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmf wrote:
Have you found any of the "new" Olds from the "new" company (manufacturing outsourced) in any way comparable to the old Olds from the original company?

I saw and tried one a few years ago. It's a basically a disappointing "intermediate" model. It's not in the same league as my Olds Ambassador - whatever you might think of those.

Not comparable in any way.
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study888
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:54 pm    Post subject: Olds Special Reply with quote

Hello IMF. Never did try out any of the new (Olds Company) NP6MT Blessing made Cornet. The Blessing Artist 141 Cornet model/Olds NP6MT Cornet do have,( but not exactly) a similar design of the Getzen 800 Eterna Cornet. To me, that type Cornet lead pipe design is really nice looking. Looks to provide a well balanced feel in the hand. The new Olds Company(Blessing made) Pro-grade Trumpets/Cornets probably play just fine. The E-Bay seller Alucard, stated in his sales ad. On a new( NP12M-Pro-Grade) Olds/ Blessing made Trumpet he sold. That Blessing desinated their best Bell making craftsman, on the bells of those new(NP12M) Pro-grade Olds Trumpets. May have done the same on your Blessing Artist 141 model/Olds(NP6MT) Pro grade model cornets. They do appear to be one and the same. Sold under two differant company names. Probably when Blessing sold the Company and retooled for Flute making etc. They dropped the Blessing 141 Artist model under the Blessing name. But maybe, still being under a contract with this new Olds company. Just kept making it as the NP6MT Olds Pro-mode cornet. The new Olds Company does offer a 10 year warranty on their Horns. Not sure if Conn Selmer offers any such warranty on their brands. Back to the original made Olds Special Cornet. If I had a choice of a Olds Ambassador or Olds Special Cornet of same year make, with not much price differance. I would take the Olds Special. Better bracing,more nickel silver,etc. Both are well made Student Cornets. Another more modern Student cornet to look at, is the Yamaha 2310II Cornets. I have read the straight bell 2310II model plays better than it's shepard crook model. They usually sell cheaper than the shepard crook model. About two semister into this coming band season ,will see a lot of them poping up on E-Bay. Sometimes you can get a good price on one of these. Good luck.

Last edited by study888 on Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:45 pm; edited 3 times in total
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lmf
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
lmf wrote:
Have you found any of the "new" Olds from the "new" company (manufacturing outsourced) in any way comparable to the old Olds from the original company?

I saw and tried one a few years ago. It's a basically a disappointing "intermediate" model. It's not in the same league as my Olds Ambassador - whatever you might think of those.

Not comparable in any way.


Crazy Finn,

What if a player isn't an intermediate yet?

Best wishes,

Lloyd
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study888
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:40 am    Post subject: Olds Special Reply with quote

Hello Crazy Finn. The Olds/Blessing made cornet you tried. Was it a Student model (NA5M) cornet or the Pro grade model (NP6MT) cornet? The NP6MT will look like a Getzen Eterna 800 Cornet copy. I have seen over time Olds NA10M/NL10M Trumpets pop up on E-Bay. But seldom a NP12M/NP6MT Professional Trumpet/Cornet models. At up to and over $2000.00 dollars. Somebody must be liking them. See a lot more Yammie Trumpet/ Cornets poping up on E-Bay, than these Olds/Blessing made Trumpet/ Cornets. That could be though, to the great amount of the market, Yamaha has gained. There are a lot of great remarks/ reviews, on the King Legend Trumpet. But once and awhile,someone who has played one, will say it is a Dog. But regardless,we need all the positive/ negative remarks/reviews, on all these vintage and new upcoming, Trumpet/Cornet/Flugel Companys. And Private Trumpet/Cornet/Flugel horn makers also. Thank you for your input.
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lmf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Olds Special Reply with quote

study888 and Crazy Finn,

I can only say that the Blessing 141 Artist Short Cornet appears to be exactly like the Olds NP6MST Cornet (including deluxe case) sold by the new company selling Olds instruments who now calls itself "Olds" like it or not. Both of these cornets (in silverplate) have one Amado water key, trigger for the first valve and look identical. The NP6MST is listed in the new Olds literature as a "professional" brass instrument whereas the Blessing 141 Artist Short Cornet sold by WWBW then was advertised as an "intermediate cornet with professional features."

I don't see the similarity between the Blessing 141 Artist Short Cornet with the Getzen 800 cornet (an excellent instrument) for I believe the Getzen has two Amado Water Keys and no trigger for the first valve.

I am somewhat confused as to comparisons at this point. The Blessing 141S Artist Short Cornet with Deluxe Case purchased from WWBW looks to be exactly the same cornet as the Olds NP6MST with Deluxe casei) offered by the new Olds company.

Has anyone tried the Old NP6MST (or lacquer) cornet as compared to the Blessing 141 Artist cornet for comparison. Has a comparison been done for both of them and the similar "original" version from the "old" Olds Company? Seems to me those comparisons would be most interesting considering the good reputation the older Olds brass instruments have.

Best wishes,

Lloyd
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Olds Special Reply with quote

skootchy wrote:
I was thinking of picking up a decent Cornet just to fool around with and I happen to run across an Olds Special which is in pretty good shape at a decent price. Not being familiar with this particular make/model I thought I would ask what you guys think about it. Is this a pretty good pro model Cornet worth restoring? I don't really have a need for a Cornet, just always wanted one to fool around with and complete my collection.


Back in the day the horns were made to hold together pretty darn well. Can't say that with consistency for modern 'student' or 'intermediate' offerings. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. (See how many are around in 40 years!!) However, if you've got a bird in hand, invest in a real cornet mpc or two before making up your mind on restoration. The Special was a step (supposedly) above the Ambassador. Yet as it's told, Olds varied materials but machined every horn to the same tolerances. Last, beware the siren song of the cornet. That voice, it'll grab ya!
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OldTnTptBoy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is lots of good advice above. Here is a bit more:
1. The cornet mouthpiece is very important to obtain the ideal cornet sound. IF you use a trumpet rim and cup, etc., attached to a cornet shank, it will sound like a trumpet (e.g., a Bach 5C Cornet mouthpiece). I suggest you look at the other thread in the Cornet/Flugles, titled, Wick 4B." It discusses more than just the Wick 4B and give a good all around view. Believe it or not, cornets require a different mouthpiece and they are supposed to sound different from trumpets. The Wick 4B is a good starting point.
2. I owned an Olds Special TRUMPET for several years, during the 1950's when they were supposed to be fairly good quality. The one I had was only a student quality instrument. It did not play very well.
3. Also as described above, I found that the receiver on the Olds Special TRUMPET did not properly fit a standard taper trumpet mouthpiece (e.g., Bach). It fit in, but there was a gap, which I felt deteriorated a good quality in the sound. So watch for that in this instrument.


Last edited by OldTnTptBoy on Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Olds Special Reply with quote

study888 wrote:
Hello Crazy Finn. The Olds/Blessing made cornet you tried. Was it a Student model (NA5M) cornet or the Pro grade model (NP6MT) cornet?

Neither.

It was a lacquer trumpet at the local music store. Since it was a little over a decade ago - I don't remember the model (NA something), but it was priced as an "intermediate" model. At that time, I had recently acquired my Olds Ambassador - and it was my daily trumpet for teaching. The "new" Olds was a normal looking horn, but played the same league as the most student trumpets back then - those Bach TR300's and the UMI-era King and Conn student horns. It was marked as made in Elkhart - so it was likely a Blessing-produced instrument. My original Olds was a far superior horn - and that was before it got it's ultrasonic cleaning which did improve it further.

Also, it should be understood that most "intermediate" instruments are simply student model instruments with the addition of some features like a first slide saddle, a fixed 3rd slide ring, and silver plating. It's quite possible that these might even be marketed as "professional features." Some of them are seen nowadays on student model horns, too. There are exceptions to this - but not that many.

I've played a few Blessing horns over the years - none of them "vintage" from it's heyday - and they've all been forgettable. Not bad instruments, just not memorable. Somewhat serviceable, but unspectacular and unremarkable. I've never bothered to shop for them and can't comment on their comparisons to the "new" Olds instruments. I've never seen the point in spending any more time on any of them. There are far better instruments for less money available.

Much like the most UMI-era Kings don't share much common with the original Kings, other than the name - or the post Chicago/Burbank/Los Angeles Benges have little to do with their namesake, these Olds instruments have nothing to do with the original Olds instruments other than their brand-name.
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study888
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject: Olds Special Reply with quote

Ditto IMF. I stand corrected. Have edited that post on the Getzen 800 Eterna. The new model Getzen 800 Eterna's Cornet, are being offered on WoodWind& Brass with a nice Rose Brass Bell. Nice looking Cornet. Your Silver plated Blessing 141 Artist Cornet is a nice looking Cornet also. Ditto to OldtnTptboy. Good info. on that Denis Wick cornet m.p. post. Another fine playing Cornet m.p.,(but a little expensive); is the Sparx cornet m.p's ,made by the GR company. If one does not like the flat rim or rim design of the Denis Wick cornet m.p's. The Sparx cornet m.p's should fill the bill. They are very good playing Cornet m.p's. Ditto to Crazy Finn's remarks. If a person can afford it,or be patience and save up some more money. If I have not already said it. The old saying; (It only cost a little more to go first class),rings true on most brands of Trumpet/Cornets, offering Student/Intermediate models. Not true though for these, (BUY IT Now) E-Bay horn sellers, selling off bad rehabed Horns. Have to watch those real close. No reflection on all E-Bay horn sellers. I happen to be one to. My selling has pretty well wound down. Bought and tried a lot of differant vintage/new brands of Trumpets/cornets. Am real happy with my two King Master Cornets and my King Golden Flair Trumpet. I had to sell my beautiful,in mint condition, two toned Silver plated. 1942 Conn Concert Grand Cornet. Will miss it. A Jazz player out North West bought it. He is very happy with it, at least a Player has it. The other vintage mint condition Cornet, I stupidly sold, and miss. Is a 1963 med. bore Reynolds Argenta Cornet. A Jazz player from Australia bought it. I sold my 1961 Conn 37A Connstellation Cornet,to a Jazz player up North. So one thing I have done,as a come back player, is make a few Jazz players very happy. Including all the new and various Trumpet/Cornet M.P's I bought at retail and resold at half price to some of you fella's. (OH Me OH My) Good luck to all.
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lmf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

study888 and Crazy Finn,

I can't say that the Blessing Artist 141 Short Cornet is the new Olds NP6MST, but they look exactly alike all the way from the cornet to the carrying case. I believe Blessing may have manufactured the Olds NP6MST to the original specifications for the new company now known as Olds. I believe James Becker indicated that Blessing patterned that particular instrument (Blessing 141 Artist Cornet) from the original Olds specifications in another TH article. I don't presume that either intrument plays like the original Olds, as not having played all three I can't say that. Without doing an actual test comparison, I just don't know?

As far as another cornet being cheaper than the Blessing Artist 141, I can't say. However, I bought it brand new from WWBW (the dealer called Blessing and it was sent over in a half hour) on 8/26/2006 for which I paid $589.99 (Serial #A06283) which was in my budget at the time. I always wanted a shepherd's crook cornet in silverplate and fell in love with it when I tested it. I was a comeback player at the time and the instrument was finished well (still is) and played well. Having noted price increases of instruments today, the price I paid was very reasonable for the quality of the cornet I received. Elkhart is only less than an hour's drive from my home, so I figured if it needed warranty service, I could take it there. It has never needed service. If I bought a better cornet, I would still retain the Blessing Artist 141 for sentimental value.

Best wishes,

Lloyd
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