Joined: 01 Dec 2007 Posts: 354 Location: Riverside, California
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:15 am Post subject: embouchure help
I'm instructing at a local high school as a brass tech, and band camp started this week. There's a freshman who's embouchure is really off-set to the right...when she plays her horn is about 45 degrees to the right and she puffs her cheeks pretty bad as well.
Is there an easy way to fix this, or am I looking at a complete embouchure change? I've never had to teach a student through an embouchure change and do not really feel confident enough in myself to do so. If this is the case though, what's the best way to go about it?
p.s. It is important to note that a more experienced private teacher is out of the question.
It was the first thing I suggested and the family just doesn't have the money. _________________ Tim Bliven
Lawler C7
Getzen 700s Eterna II
Bach Omega
Berkley Flugel
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 4275 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:52 am Post subject:
Have her place the music stand on the right. Insist that the bell points past the music stand on the left. In a few months the horn will move to the center. _________________ Bill Bergren
Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal.
www.synergyjazz.org
If that would actually work, wouldn't everyone that plays left or right of a music stand play off-center? _________________ Kanstul 1525 Flugel ('10), Bach Strad ML 37 ('80), Olds Recording Cornet ('51)
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 1081 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:32 am Post subject:
Off center doesn't concern me too much, a lot of cheek puff seems more problematic.
My teacher says that he recommend that a student either free-buzz or just form a small aperature and blow gently. He used his hand to find out where the air is escaping the lips and that's where he had the student place the mouthpiece. Of course that was with an more experienced player who went through some significant dental work. Not sure he'd recommend that same system for a relatively inexperienced player. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/Southern California, USA
Bach Strad 180ML43/43* Bb
Yamalone 6445HGII/MC2 C
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 4275 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject:
RandyTX wrote:
If that would actually work, wouldn't everyone that plays left or right of a music stand play off-center?
90% of the students who play off center play to the right as they tend to center the bell rather than the leadpipe. And yes, it does work. _________________ Bill Bergren
Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal.
www.synergyjazz.org
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 4275 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject:
<Off center doesn't concern me too much>
It wouldn't concern me at all if we were talking about an advanced player. But barring some physical aspect, all developing students should be playing in the center. _________________ Bill Bergren
Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal.
www.synergyjazz.org
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 357 Location: Portland, Or.
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:29 am Post subject:
cheiden wrote:
Off center doesn't concern me too much, a lot of cheek puff seems more problematic.
yeah but the OP said it's like 45' off to the right. that sounds way off center and that's a problem!
here's something i use to teach my students aperture formation and corner strength. You know those tiny plastic straws for stirring coffee? cut off a piece about 3/4" to 1" long and have them put it in the middle of their lips and practice blowing out of it. it teaches them the idea of a nice small focused aperture and firm corners. also if you do it for like 3+ minutes straight inhaling through your nose it'll work your corners big time. that may help her learn what a centered embouchure feels like.
good luck _________________ Late,
Mm
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 1081 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject:
I agree that 45 degrees is likely too far to manage but most placements are made based on the high points of uneven top front teeth and can be substantially off center. Trying to enforce a center placement is guaranteed to cause big problems for many players with uneven teeth.
This reminds me a little of the Drum Corp types that insist on a strictly horizontal horn angle, regardless of the individual players bite. Even had a guy who saw a video of Sergie Nakariakov playing and wondered aloud how much better he'd be if he would hold his horn up . With DC I can appreciate the need for uniformity but this constraint can definately work an individuals development. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/Southern California, USA
Bach Strad 180ML43/43* Bb
Yamalone 6445HGII/MC2 C
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Kanstul 920 Picc
Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/5C underpart
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 4900 Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:44 pm Post subject:
Work with her buzzing ala Pops McLaughlin. Wherever the buzz is, put the mouthpiece.
Quote:
This reminds me a little of the Drum Corp types that insist on a strictly horizontal horn angle, regardless of the individual players bite. Even had a guy who saw a video of Sergie Nakariakov playing and wondered aloud how much better he'd be if he would hold his horn up . With DC I can appreciate the need for uniformity but this constraint can definately work an individuals development.
Yeah, they've carried that over to HS marching band around here. It really messes with my students. I insist that they continue to play correctly, but that puts them and me at odds with the Band Director. It's tough, because every day they are told to get the horn up and play louder than they can. The BDs should get together and tell the judging body to change the rules regarding horn angles, because they refuse to be judged that way and refuse to mess up students embouchures. _________________ Crazy Nate
" Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you." - CTM
"Before playing your horn each time, grab the nuts and twist 'em tight" - Tom Turner
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 7500 Location: North Scottsdale, AZ.
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject:
crzytptman wrote:
Work with her buzzing ala Pops McLaughlin. Wherever the buzz is, put the mouthpiece.
Quote:
This reminds me a little of the Drum Corp types that insist on a strictly horizontal horn angle, regardless of the individual players bite. Even had a guy who saw a video of Sergie Nakariakov playing and wondered aloud how much better he'd be if he would hold his horn up . With DC I can appreciate the need for uniformity but this constraint can definately work an individuals development.
Yeah, they've carried that over to HS marching band around here. It really messes with my students. I insist that they continue to play correctly, but that puts them and me at odds with the Band Director. It's tough, because every day they are told to get the horn up and play louder than they can. The BDs should get together and tell the judging body to change the rules regarding horn angles, because they refuse to be judged that way and refuse to mess up students embouchures.
Scores...that drives too many BD's....and ego.. _________________ Dave Bacon
Mesa Community College
trumpetbacon@gmail.com
Unless she sounds terrible, then don't fix the mouthpiece placement.
Work first with the cheeks (its much more simple). Allow that placement to take its path and throughout her years, it will adjust itself.
I used to have a great vid of the old principal of the berlin phil tearing it up on Firebird. He plays basically on his cheek.
This is the best one I could remember (thanks to the la mer inserts thread). Got to 1:20 and look at the guy on the right. You can't really tell because of the video angle, but you can get the idea.
His head is turned to his right so that he may play "straight ahead"
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 357 Location: Portland, Or.
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject:
come on y'all, we're talking about a young kid who's barely been playing 3 years. FIX HER PLACEMENT! just because some random dude managed to get to pro level with an F-ed up placement doesn't mean it's okay to let it go, especially when she's so young. it's not like she's a performance major at a conservatory. just fix it and get over it! (i'm assuming her teeth are "normal.")
sorry i'm tired and cranky... _________________ Late,
Mm
Cannonball 725-S Bb
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Yamaha Custom Tenor Sax YTS-875
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Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 1258 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject:
I agree with Mike, BUT the OP was asking if there was an easy way and unfortunately the answer is no. Even small changes take time and most importantly, discipline. He's also said that he's not comfortable with a full change which is key.
So like some of the other posters said, work on the cheek thing first.
You can actually do this in class. Have everyone blow air and really try to puff their cheeks. Do this like 10x so they recognize the feeling of puffing. Then have them puff and correct the puff. Then do the same thing while blowing into the leadpipe without a mpc. Then try it while playing a G.
Of course the person with the problem is gonna have to practice this exercise at home.
Good luck!
Eb _________________ Eric Bolvin
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Joined: 01 Dec 2007 Posts: 354 Location: Riverside, California
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:19 pm Post subject:
Well thanks for the response. Yes, I know displacement is pretty common, I play off center slightly to the right. But this is a little drastic. And no she doesn't sound [img]horrible[/img], but she doesn't exactly sound good.
It's kind of difficult to explain... Because the cheek-puffing and displacement go hand and hand: when she stops puffing her cheeks, it completely changes her embouchure and she can hardly make a sound. It's like she puffs her cheeks to make her lips lay flat against the mouthpiece.. if that makes any sense. I will try to get a picture if I can, without seeming too weird. (And while still trying to act like I know what I'm doing) _________________ Tim Bliven
Lawler C7
Getzen 700s Eterna II
Bach Omega
Berkley Flugel
I agree with Mike, BUT the OP was asking if there was an easy way and unfortunately the answer is no. Even small changes take time and most importantly, discipline. He's also said that he's not comfortable with a full change which is key.
I agree with this. Time and discipline are needed by the student and a teacher (in this case you) to make this happen successfully.
I think addressing the cheecks is a great first step.
For the mouthpiece placement you could try LOTS of mouthpiece buzzing from a centered set. If she gets used to buzzing everything from the center on a mouthpiece alone, it might be easier to adjust things when the horn is attached.
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 991 Location: Northern VA
Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:46 am Post subject: Re: embouchure help
Take it 8va wrote:
p.s. It is important to note that a more experienced private teacher is out of the question.
It was the first thing I suggested and the family just doesn't have the money.
Lot's of families struggle to pay for lessons for their children. Where there's a will there is a way. _________________ NY and Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg amps.
I agree, it needs to be fixed. I also agree that the best way to do it is to have an experienced teacher fix it for her. I don't know if any help you give will be very beneficial, because you probably do not see her that much.
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. With DC I can appreciate the need for uniformity but this constraint can definately work an individuals development.
