Another new mouthpiece discussion

[alanjk]

My current mouthpiece is a Bach 1 1/4C. I picked it on my own about 3 years ago because I liked the richer tone I could produce and figured my embouchure would grow into it i.e. it would get stronger with time. It has but not enough and my endurance is limited in part I think by the sharp edges of the mouthpiece on my very thin lips. It is too big for me and will probably always be too large for my face. My teacher at the time was a student teacher and we never really discussed it as he had little to say on the subject when I asked.

On my own recently I tried playing the Bach 7C that came with the horn and, fter a week of trying it was not all that comfortable either. I could play longer but my lips still felt bruised at the end of my practice sessions. My current teacher is a pro and suggests moving to a somewhat smaller cup size - a 3c with a rounder edge of some other manufacturer e.g. Curry,Wick, Warburton, Stork to see how a different edge feels. That way I will hopefully keep the richer tone and have a more comfortable rim. We also work on strengthening exercises to build endurance and I know to avoid pressure as much as possible, especially in the higher range.

The questions are:
- Is a 3C or equivelent different enough from a 1 1/4 to make a significant difference?
Should I just focus on the feel of the mouthpiece and forget the very thin lips?
What sizes would be appropirate to try as the possibilities are endless?
I know all the comments about just going with what my teacher suggests but reading this forum has made me aware of the degree of opinion and subjectiveness on this particular subject. This is one area where I would appreciate other opinions.

[garrett901]

My opinion...

Go with comfort first. Learn to play the mouthpiece that is comfortable, that way your not wasting energy (thru the lip) trying to force a mouthpiece to do something. Your mouthpiece is just a tool. Pick the right tool and the work is easier. pick the wrong tool and the work becomes harder. Keep in mind that deeper cups, "help" produce darker sounds. Shallow cups "help" produce brighter sounds. Thinner rims "help" with flexibility. Fat rims "help" with endurance. The key word in all those is "help". Of course the closer you get to the extremes of anything, the more difficult the "tool" is to use. I always suggest to use the most comfortable mouthpiece that helps you achieve the sound you are looking for, then play it ! Don't let the mouthpiece play you. Some folks are fortunate enough to be able to switch back and forth, large, to small, shallow to deep without effecting there playing. Well that's not me. If I tried to do that I'd be a mess, so my hats off to those who can. Good luck with your search. Let comfort/sound be the defining factor. You will know fairly quickly once you find the "comfortable fit".
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Played trumpet and G Soprano Bugle for 10 years, took a 26 year break serving our country(Air Force). Now I'm back again playing Soprano for the Freelancers D & BC Alumni.
Kanstul G Soprano
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream ZX w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!

[Dan in Sydney]

Get onto the Stork website and have a read of the mouthpiece articles that Phyllis Stork has written re embouchure size and type and rim size. The Bach 3C is a great start--it wouldn't be so popular with so many players if it wasn't a great all round shape and depth. BTW, if you can, try a few examples of the same piece---it's worth paying a few bucks extra to do this in person.
The rim on the 3C is a bit broader without the "hump" or high point that can exist on the 1 1/4.
Parke also makes an outstanding version of a 3C-sized piece, i think it's the 630 diameter.

www.storkcustom.com
www.mouthpiecerentals.com
_________________
Principal Trumpet,
Sydney Symphony Orchestra
Sydney Opera House
www.sydneysymphony.com

"Breathe musically to play musically"

[frmoose]

Don't be afraid to try other brands too. I'm not completely anti-Bach but I feel like the mouthpieces are terribly uncomfortable. I did, however play on a 3C for about 3 years, I think, when I was in high school.

I also tried to play on a mouthpiece that was too big for about a year, so I know what you mean about that. Good luck with this stuff. I reccomend Laskey mp's if you care.

[royjohn]

I am confused by the OP's descriptions. Using the Kanstul mpc comparator will show which rims are better and what the cup sizes are. I found the discussions and pictures of various lips at the Stork website useful, too. Maybe you will see your face there.

I don't think your lips should feel "bruised" after a practice session of a reasonable length, say a half hour or so. Maybe you are using more pressure than you think. I also don't think that a more rounded rim is going to be more comfortable. A little roundness at the inside rim, yes, but a flatter rim overall should be more comfortable and give more endurance. You are spreading the contact over a larger area, so there's less pressure in any one spot.

Lastly, while there might be other factors, I would think of using the smallest cup in which I could get both my lips to fit. After some practice, look in the mirror and see if the mpc rim is on the white of both lips as it should be. I guess this depends on the size of the lips, the amount of roll-in and how far apart your jaws are, but where the rim sits should give you a good idea of what size is right for you. It could even be something smaller than a 7C if you really have very thin lips.
_________________
royjohn

playing on:
1928 Holton Llewellyn
1949 Holton Stratodyne
1957 Holton 51LB
1950 King Liberty

1934 Conn Glantz Model C Trumpet

1906 York Professional Cornet
1952 King Master Cornet

1975 Olds Superstar Flugel

[crzytptman]

[silverhorn]

Don't let the size of your lips dictate the size of your mouthpiece choices. I have big fleshy lips yet am comfortable with and play fine on small shallow mouthpieces. Some people suggest playing the smallest mouthpiece you can while still producing a desireable sound since smaller equipment tends to be more efficient. Others will suggest playing the biggest mouthpiece you can without sacrificing alot of endurance and maintaining a good sound. Both schools of thought may be a means to the same end point. as the other posters have said, I'd recommend going with the most comfortable mouthpiece that allows you to still get the sound you want, regardless of what size and shape it ends up being. The 3C feels alot different to me than a 1.5C even though the difference size wise is probably pretty minimal. Others may not be able to feel alot of difference but each individual is different

[shofarguy]

Boy, the OP's challenges sound similar to mine of a few years ago.

I had a Bach 3C, Kanstul B3C and Curry-made Flip Oakes #3 TCC and Flugelhorn mouthpieces. I still have Kanstul CG3 and Personal mouthpieces.

I have thin lips and used to have trouble with bruising, too. I had trouble hitting any right notes with the CG3 when I was using so much pressure.

Pressure on the lips meant I was using tension - the stretching of my lips - to get into the higher region of my range.

What helped (in the order of what I learned):

Seeing a diagram of a compression-based embouchure in a Roy Poper book and trying it out for two months until I could do it and sound good.

Very quiet playing. Long tones, slow scales and easy songs all within the staff.

Free-lip buzzing, making sure to form a small round aperture with my lips. Concentrating the buzz into the very center of the lips and discovering how to make one clear tone was the key. Pencil exercises, or using a coffee straw to make sure my lip muscles were working in the right direction proved vital.

After the above journey, the CG3 became my favorite rim. It is comfortable and allows me to play 2 hours or more at a time. It is stable now and I can hit most every note (if I've been regular in my practicing ) as I hear it.

The FO Curry rim is also good, though the 5 rim is better for me, as it is closer to the modern Bach 3 and CG3 size. It is flatter than the CG rim, but has a nice comfortable amount of bite; a bit less than the Bach or Kanstul.

Without the excessive pressure, any of these rims are playable.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn
LA Benge 5X


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[LeeC]

[royjohn]

Look at your lips, they are red. Look at your skin, it is a different texture and (possibly) color. With apologies for the Euro-centric nature of the term, "the white" is the skin around the lips.
_________________
royjohn

playing on:
1928 Holton Llewellyn
1949 Holton Stratodyne
1957 Holton 51LB
1950 King Liberty

1934 Conn Glantz Model C Trumpet

1906 York Professional Cornet
1952 King Master Cornet

1975 Olds Superstar Flugel

[John Mohan]

[VetPsychWars]

Another comfortable and inexpensive alternative is the Schilke 14. They sound fabulous and don't cost a lot, especially when used.

Or, you can try a Kelly 5C as well, very comfortable. Some people don't like plastic, though. (The Kellys feel about a size larger compared to Bach.)

Tom
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Buescher 400 Trumpets and Cornet
Meeuwsen custom 5C-ish mouthpiece
Milwaukee Metropolitan Community Concert Band

[crzytptman]

[lburrows]

[mikeman7]

I am always amazed why people never mention a Bach 5B!! It's a great size that works with lots of players, especially since the OP says he has thin lips. Another poster mentions teeth and not just lip size to determine mpc size and that's a good take for sure. but assuming your teeth and jaw aren't too large, if you have thin lips i would definitely not being playing a 1 anything.

i personally don't care for Bachs, but if you want to stay with them try a 5B or even a 3B!
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Mm

Cannonball 725-S Bb
Monette B 2.5
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SR Technologies Legend Mpc (metal)

[RandyTX]

I have always liked (and 90% of my playing has been on) a Bach 5B.

Apparently, according to a few custom mouthpiece makers I have discussed this with, the "specs" on the 5B have changed a lot over the years. I have one for cornet, and one for trumpet, both purchased new in the late 70s/early 80s time frame, and I like them both. Samples from other periods can be painful for a lot of players, something about the rim shape and/or bite. I've never encountered this myself, and again it may be specific to individual players anyway.

Even Bach researchers (on Bach's own website) have articles about how Bach mouthpiece dimensions changed frequently, as tool wear was allowed to progress quite a bit before being replaced with new models, so a given mouthpiece model would shrink and grow cyclically over time.

I've seen reported elsewhere that even to this day, the Bach published "specs" on their mouthpieces are radically different than what they actually produce, perhaps intentionally to confuse the competition.
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Kanstul 1525 Flugel ('10), Bach Strad ML 37 ('80), Olds Recording Cornet ('51)

"Play the music, not the instrument."

[alanjk]

Thanks so much for the comments.
I will focus on rim size first, also rim contours. I will order some mouthpieces with a flatter rim maybe a bit less bite - certainly than the Bach (and the author above is correct. The Bach 3c WAS more comfortable than the 7C and now I know why). I will concern myself with cup size/shape after that. It would be great if there were someplace nearby that I could try a raft of mouthpieces but it takes a while to get used to any one so that would likely be misleading anyway. I have been told that Warburton makes a somewhat flatter contour and my teacher loves his Curry so that is where I will start. Warburton is modular so it also allows for trying variations on the backbore too. At worst, there will be many practice sessions going over the fundamentals in running them through their paces.
Thank you again!

[DaveH]

7C, 3C, 1 & 1/14C...

I have all of those and have played them all...mostly the 1 1/4C and the 3C. They are all very different, and in my case, although I can play them all, the 3C is probably the best overall, all around mouthpiece for me. In terms of comfort, the 3C is probably the most comfortable, because it has the least amount of "sharpness". It is also the shallowest and the in the middle in diameter.

It also probably produces the inherently brightest tone of the three.

Yes, there is a significant difference between a 3C and a 1 1 /4C. I play both, but gravitate toward the 3C; mostly due to the inherent tonal brightness, and it is somewhat easier to play overall.

[cheiden]

I gravitated from smaller pieces up to a Bach 1-1/2C (only briefly on the 1-1/4C) because I liked the almost instantly bigger perceived sound. After a while I couldn't deny that it was more tiring and that I wasn't making reasonable progress, at least not with the way I was going at it. I backed off to a Bach 3C and have been much happier with my development. I think the 3C is one on the more comfortable Bach rims for many players. The Bach 7C, 5C and 1-1/2C certainly have their proponents but for many, they're not as comfortable. If you like the feel of the Bach 3C rim you might enjoy playing around with the standard Yamaha line. To my lips they all feel 3C-like regardless of the diamater. I've enjoyed Yamaha size 14, 13, 12 and 11, to my thinking none of them have the uncomfortable rims that some of he Bach models have. Then again none of them sound as good as I think my current Bach setup does.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/Southern California, USA
Bach Strad 180ML43/43* Bb
Yamalone 6445HGII/MC2 C
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Kanstul 920 Picc
Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/5C underpart

[dbacon]