OLDS Short Stroke Valves

[tmckane]

Hi
I have a 1932 Olds special cornet and a 1940 Olds Super trumpet both with short stroke valves.. double "prong" valve guides. All of my other Olds are from the 50's and early 60's.. does anyone know the yr they stopped making the short stroke valves?

Thanks

Tim

[oldblow]

This is just an idea on my part, and probably is as wrong as it gets. But....take a look at your valves and see if the rear nub on the spring star is about 5/16 of an inch wide. I have a Blessing Super Artist cornet, serial 8075, that has wonderful short stroke valves. The description in the 1929 brochure, introducing "The Olds" trumpet, sounds suspiciously like the patent for valves listed on Horn-U-Copia for Blessing. Also, the side of the valve that takes the wide nub has "wide" stamped on it.
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Felton (Butch) Bohannon

[AproDavid]

I believe around 1947.
I have not seen short throw valves on any olds after that year.

[Capt.Kirk]

One problem with short stroke valves is that unless you make the ports monster sized you have large bumps in the air stream to make up for the short stroke. One reason most companies moved to about the same stroke length is the overall compromise by the amount of disturbance you have to have in the port versus production cost and ergonomics as to how large a piston can be made before it no longer fits in a mans hand or womans hand nicely. A lot of short stroke valves tended to feel stuff or have higher levels of resistance then their longer stroke counter parts which was another factor.

TO bad no large OEM ever decided to pick up Denis Wedgwood Ovate or Ovid port design and he no longer makes them...He said it was just too painful for him to make them! Yet another innovation come and gone from a small maker that no one in the large Mass Production Corporations even tried! People wonder why I get so bitter some time's but their is litteraly 1000's of designs and idea's and technologies that have been tried and proven to work better then the current lowest common denominator 200 year old trumpet designs that are not even being looked at by Kanstul,Bach,Conn,Selmer and on and on......I am not talking about pie in the sky George Jetson stuff rather well proven idea's and designs. Accusonic Leadpipes, Oviod Ports, Saturn Water Key's, Slightly more mass in key locations bells not thicker then .3mm and on and on........

So do not hold your breath on anyone currently mass producing trumpets to make a short stroke valve assembly that might rock the boat too much and call for some redesign of old cash cows!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[oldblow]

ApoDavid, I think you are dead on! I have perused a couple of Olds catalogs this morning, and the Olds Standard is advertised in the 1947 catalog as having short stroke valves, and the other models are not. And in the 1949 catalog, the Standard is dropped entirely.

And Cap'n, you might as well tool up and give your ideas a shot. Then post your results. I can imagine the excitement and frustration of actually realizing your design ideas.

My personal feeling, based on my restoration experience of many pieces of period southern furniture, is that a great horn is not only having a sound design, but flawless execution of that design. Craftsmen (instrument makers) must have the concept of that design so embedded in their work as to be intuitive. I think that is why the top makers and repair guys are also pretty fair players.
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Felton (Butch) Bohannon

[James Becker]

Please forgive me for going off topic, but I wanted to reply to oldblow's post.

[Robert Rowe]

Some years ago (can't recall ... but, perhaps five?) ... someone here at TH actually procured the measurements of various horn manufacturer's published (and others, wherein, I believe he measured with precision instruments) valve-stroke dimensions. Surprisingly very, very similar ... within thousandths of an inch.

I submit that the human hand / fingers cannot detect any difference. And, I believe (?) that was the general conclusion of the study.

Are we going-off (again?) on a tangent, here?


Robert

[oldblow]

Mr. Robert,(yogi), Sir,

No sir, there is like an 1/8th of an inch difference? Not much if you have good fingers, but a lot when you walk carefully to keep from falling.

I am no technical expert by any means, but the Blessing I mentioned in my earlier post has some of the characteristics mentioned by Capn. Kirk. A focused, ( not stuffy tone, but not the presence of the Bach cornet I have) tone. A wonderful tone to use with small groups, but not to crush walls.

Ala Cap'n Kirk, the bore in my horn is much smaller with the short-stroke valves. Maybe to compensate for your observations?

Just participating.
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Felton (Butch) Bohannon

[Robert Rowe]

[GordonH]

Not sure there is any advantage in short throw. Rotary trumpets have a very short distance to depress the valves and I don't find that they make any difference to my playing.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM

[AproDavid]

Huge difference to someone like me.
6 years after the infection I got from surgery I still have
trouble with pressing the 2nd and even more with the 3rd valve.

[GordonH]

So have you tried a rotary? That has the shortest throw of any valve without compromising the ports.
_________________
Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM