Geez. 1940's Martin Committee Horns seem to be going up...

RogersBrass · Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject:

Some vintage Martin Committees are in better condition than others.

That is a factor in rarity and value.

This one is pretty decent:

www.rogersbrass.com/images/martin_committee_1940_023.jpg
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Crazy Finn · Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject:

Nice!
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jocar37 · Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:13 am Post subject: Re: Martin is Smartin

RogersBrass · Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:28 am Post subject:

Renold Schilke did not transition directly from a Committee to his own Schilke models.

There is a Holton era involving Schilke for a span of 15 years after WWII.

Is a B1 a Holton clone ? A very young Renold Schilke was experimenting with reverse leadpipes at the Holton factory many years before the Committee.
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jocar37 · Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:23 am Post subject:

HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

My Schilke B1 resembles the layout of my 1956 Martin Committee Deluxe but the two horns are very different in the way they play and sound.

The Holton ST-302 is supposed to be a copy (without the reverse tuning slide) of the vintage Martin Committee large bore. The Holton is laid out very similarly to the Martin but the two horns are very different in the way they play and sound.
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RogersBrass · Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:19 am Post subject:

Speaking of Holton, and Schilke...and Martin Committees being made at the Holton factory in Elkhorn at a later period in Committee history. I would like to see the prototypes they were looking at for those...that had been hanging up for decades on that pegboard in the Holton prototype museum in the backroom.

What a web of mystery we can weave with a liittle subjective speculation.
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Zman · Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject:

Seeing as you are discussing some of the more obscure versions of the Martin I thought this image might tweak your interest.
Here's a Martin Experimental Horn thought to have been worked on by Mr Schilke himself.
It has traditional martin valve set and slides etc as you can clearly see.

Modifications:
- Slightly larger yellow brass bell with no markings
- 3rd valve throw is a lot longer than usual
- Valves stamped with an X above the serial number
- Mouthpiece shank/adapter is ala Schilke design on the B series
- Horn serial number put's it around early 50's

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RogersBrass · Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:42 pm Post subject:

Zman,

This Martin may have been someone's experiment..and worked on by someone. It is not experimental regarding the Martin company.
It looks like a pre WWII Martin leadpipe on a post 1950s Committee with a 60s Selmer Bundy mouthpiece receiver. It may have been worked on when Martins had little value as a used horn.

Schilke was playing Martins prior to WWII...and Holtons after 1950.

I am interested in more information if you have it.
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Zman · Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:20 am Post subject:

Hi RB,
Well - that's an interesting point of view.
I think my word choice was poor by saying 'Martin Experimental Horn' - I was more thinking along the lines that this could have been an early experiment for some of the Schilke designs?
(Of course I have no factual provenance at all to go by)

I did say the word 'thought' to have.....but you do pose an interesting though for further investigation about the leadpipe.
It's non-standard receiver as I had to have a shank machined specially to fit.

I purchased this off another well known tech and brass collector who knows more than a think or two about these horns.
This horn was in his private stash up until last year.
I do know of another Martin Collector that has an X stamped the same on the valve set.
Again that doesn't mean a whole lot without proof.

I didn't pay a substantial amount for this horn - so I'm not over fussed either way - it does play very well (apart from a slight ringing which I can't put my finger on - suspect it may be a loose solder somewhere? - that's another whole thread subject right there)

Maybe we should start a whole different thread on this topic?

Anyone else care to chip in with some interesting photos of non-standard Martins if we go down that path?
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Martins:
HC Committee #2
HC Imperial #3 LB & #4 XL Bore
Deluxe Committee Bb, C & Eb
Taylor Chicago II Lite
Yamaha 8335LA

www.thebrasscellar.com
www.facebook.com/thebrasscellar
www.youtube.com/channel/UCZk1sIuyVsQzrbsl7HfIfKw/

RogersBrass · Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:24 am Post subject:

Thanks Zman for some additional information.

I would say it is more than likely Schilke had many trumpets sitting around his shop similar to this one. This is exactly what Schilke did.
These were not intended for public consumption....and not intended to be pretty. This is what Eldon Benge and Schilke were doing in the late 1930s...putting together parts and seeing how they played.

I am not familiar enough with the X on the valve assembly to comment.

The pinky finger hook looks like a pre-war Handcraft. When Martin went to the modern water keys after WWII..they went to the modern style pinky hook around the same time.

Also Committees started with nickel and brass valve assemblies...then went to all brass..and then maybe back again on some models...but I am not sure about later models.

Early Committees had a small leadpipe throat...maybe a bit over .340".
I have not had enough vintage Committees in my hand to establish a data base on that specification.

Another piece of curious information I have from a former Schilke employee..is that Schilke would take bells from other brands of trumpets....then sand and buff the logo off the bell.

This should be enough to get another thread going on mystery Committees.
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MMM · Regular Member Joined: 08 Mar 2010 Posts: 46

That is one of Mr. Schilke's prototypes! He had a lot of different Martins with modifications in his shop. And he had a few pristine Committees, goldplated. A handcraft Committee, a few Committees from the mid 40's 50's and even some from the 60's. He also had a very good NY Bach and a Benge. He worked for Holton before he created the Martin Committee for the Martin co, and probably started working on his ideas there. His horns are definitely based on his ideas on the Martin trumpet and a appreciation for the F. Besson although he felt the Martin was different animal from the F.Besson and was proud of that. By the way aside from Classical trumpeters, Schilke had a great love for Maynard Ferguson, Dizzy Gilespie as well as Herseth and Andre. And he wasn't that crazy about Miles Davis who use to come in the shop (because Miles called Chicago his home as well) and Schilke built horns-Martin Committees for them in the 50's and 60's! But Mr Schilke tried to get Dizzy and Maynardl. But that,s definitely a Schilke modified Martin because I saw it before! be proud you have it, it a piece of the puzzle!

RogersBrass · Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject:

MMM,

Thanks for your input. But I had trouble sorting out your information.

What is the Martin Committee in question a prototype for ?

I know Schilke had many horns, but Schilke's involvement with Martin at the initial introduction of the Committee trumpet model was in the late 1930s..not the 1950s. Schilke's relationship with Holton spanned from his boyhood to the late 1950s.

I now see there is another thread going on this...so I'm jumping over there.
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MMM · Regular Member Joined: 08 Mar 2010 Posts: 46

No, his involvement was with the company was at least up to 1956 when he started making his own horns. And even continued through 1960's as they were being part of RMC, Wurlitzer, and CMI!

RogersBrass · Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject:

I agree with you..Schilke had his hands in many projects with more than one company for many years...that was his field of expertise.

I was speaking more of his role as an advertised performing artist...Martin prior to WWII...Holton later on with Herseth, and into the beginning of Schilke Music Products.

I have some comments to make on the other thread.
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Robert Rowe · Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:36 am Post subject:

I have at least (?) one Schilke / Martin horn ....

I say "at least", because, I have a few other Martins that kinda don't fall into specific model specs ... but, have some of the tell-tale Schilke cursive "x's" here-and-there. I have to put some creedence into the horns being prototypes, of some sort.

Years ago, I purchased a parts-lot ... mostly Committee stuff. I couldn't identify some of the things (at first), but, later, as I acquired some other more-obscure Martin models, I began to realize several (many, maybe?) of the bits-&-pieces were, indeed, Schilke's "stash-pile".

I have one horn that is a sort-of "balanced" configuration Committee, with some weird bracing. Doggone horns really plays nicely, though.

Robert

jazztrpt76 · Regular Member Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 59

Good lord on the prices on them horns! I got my 46 Committee for $950.xx and my 59 deluxe for $1200.xx. But that was years and years ago!!! Anyway, for what I do which is mostly Jazz Quintets/Quartets the horn's hype is spot on (IMO) and would recommend this horn. A couple of years ago I had Charlie Melk work on these horns and they now play twice as nice. I own about about 30+ horns Bachs, Harrelson, Yamaha, Taylors etc. And I kept coming back to the Martin. But I don't think I'll pay $2500 for a used horn

I guess I got really lucky with mine. I think the Yamaha 6310Z is close but hundreds of dollars less. I was playing one yesterday with a NY Bach 7 mpc. Really nice and mellow! But thats just me.

BTW, on SAXES.. SELMER MK 6's! are hyped up for a reason. I went thruogh 16 saxes this yr and nothing really compares to a MK6. I didn't believe the hype before but when I got my 1969 tenor. It really changed my feeling about those MK6's. Last month I got me another one, a 1950's MK6 and it was a better! The sound is so inspiring. I was so hooked on SELMERS that I traded my 82Z Tenor (Yamaha's TOP line) for a Vintage SELMER neck! Most SELMER will make any YAMAHA (and other) saxes sound like toys.

jazztrpt76 · Regular Member Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 59

FWIW.. my sax playing buddy ( a Yamaha freak) that he himself needs to go get himself a Vintage SELMER after trying one. Sadly, even with his Black lacquered 82Z as a trade he will still owe the store like $4000.00.

The store owner (also my friend) said that my friend will never sleep that night, and he was right?