Finding a Good Lead Mouthpiece.

FranklinPlaysTrumpet · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:17 am Post subject: Finding a Good Lead Mouthpiece.

I am a high school student and I have some questions about finding a good lead mouthpiece. I know that equipment doesn't work miracles, and I'm trying to find something that lets me do what I can do easier. I have been playing on a Bach 1 1/2 C for about 2 years now and I've only been able to try a Schlike 14a4a and I didn't really like it. I couldn't establish a good, solid sound with it and I was confused. I can play a solid, musical double G on a 1 1/2 C but it was really hard to play it on the 14a4a. I'm looking for suggestions on my playing as well as what mouthpieces are similar to a 1 1/2 C in every way but with a shallower cup. Thanks for any Help!

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giakara · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:32 am Post subject:

Bob Reeves makes some of the best lead/commercial pieces in the market and many of the top pro in the busines use his stuff, if the Bach 1 1/2 C works for you a very nice solution is a 43M or S cup with the standart #2 bbore , this bbore is a improuve copy of the Bach #10 bbore (your 1 1/2C have #10 bbore) and will help you to play on the high register with out force you to make a big chage also the 43M have the same bore like your bach piece (#27) but i belive the S cup it works better for this job .
I have to tell you that Reevesw pieces cost lot of $$$ and you must try before buy

.

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bach_again · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:00 am Post subject:

IMO Mark Curry is the man to ask.

The Curry 3M. would be the first one you should try - it is slightly smaller than the 1 1/2C but the rim has a very similar profile. It will be much less of a shock than the 14a4.

Pop to the market place and buy some 2nd hand pieces to try. How else do you fill a drawer with mouthpieces

While I played Schilke I preferred the 15a4 for lead. Very flat rim, ultimately not a piece that worked for me.

Warburton 3M or 3SV would be a great piece to try - that will be bigger than the Curry 3M. but only marginally. It actually may suit your chops better. Try something like a 7 backbore to begin with. Maybe a 6 or 5 for lead.

Again - years back I played Warburton - 2 years on a 3MC/12, about the same on a 4M/9* and briefly on a 5SV/6 - they have similar rims to the Bach 1 1/2C - maybe a little more cushioned.

I'm now playing a Curry 3MS. w/26 throat. (this is 10 thou shallower than the 3M.) and a Bach 5SV. For more all-round playing I play a Curry 3M./26, a 3C./26 and a Bach 5a.

Good luck on your quest - remember, if the 1 1/2C works - use it

A friend of mine sounds great playing lead on a 1 1/4C.

Bruce Adams sounds great playing a 3MD/11*

http://youtu.be/k-PXRCYkqa0

Keep her lit

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HERMOKIWI · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581

If you can play a solid, musical double G on a 1 1/2C then you shouldn't mess with the cup diameter. All you need to do to make that double G a little easier is to use a set up with a little more resistance. There are four basic ways to do that in the mouthpiece: (1) Shallower cup, (2) smaller drill hole, (3) longer throat and (4) tighter backbore.

You should not expect any of these changes to increase your range. Greater resistance, up to the point of too much resistance, simply makes it a little easier to produce the range you have. Understand, however, that the mechanical advantage of greater resistance, in terms of making the high register easier to produce, is minimal.

Then there's the issue of the sound produced. Shallower cups tend to produce a brighter sound, but not everyone agrees that a brighter sound is the superior lead sound. Conrad Gozzo is one of the most revered lead players of all time and his sound was huge with a very dense core.

There are many players who play shallow cup mouthpieces because they think that lead players are supposed to play shallow cup mouthpieces. In other words, they just have tunnel vision on that issue. I admit that I was among them for many years. I was under the erroneous belief that a shallow cup increased my range.

Then I started experimenting with deeper cups, keeping the cup diameter the same. My range stayed the same. I didn't really notice any difference in the ease with which I produced my range. My sound got much fuller with a much more dense core. It was a huge improvement and much more consistent with the sound I want to produce.

Understanding the sound you want to produce is a big issue here. If you're going to experiment with mouthpieces it is a good idea to have someone whose judgment you trust listening to you and advising you. What you hear on your end of the horn can be very different from what people hear on the other end of the horn.

I've played Bob Reeves mouthpieces for 40 years. Bob makes excellent mouthpieces in a wide range of combinations. His staff is knowledgeable. You can telephone them, ask questions and get answers.
There are many excellent mouthpiece manufacturers, however, so you have many choices.

The most important factor to me is the sound. That means that the most important question to be answered about a mouthpiece is this: Do you produce the sound you want to produce by using this, that or some other mouthpiece? The right mouthpiece will give you the sound you want, it won't compromise your range and it will make your range easy enough for you to produce it consistently. "Easy enough" means just that. Maybe not the easiest but easy enough.

Many players have problems with bottoming out on shallow cup mouthpieces, so you want to watch out for that. Keep in mind that as you tire your embouchure tends to blow farther out into the cup, so a mouthpiece that is deep enough at the beginning of the gig can be too shallow by the end of the gig.
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garrett901 · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:08 am Post subject:

The above post is spot on my opinion.

Let the sound be the deciding factor. If you the type of player who can change mouthpieces and not affect accuracy, then you can switch back and forth based on the type of playing (jazz vs. orchestral).

If however you’re like me, I can’t switch around at all! It totally screws up my accuracy on the notes. I suggest finding a two or even a three piece mouthpiece. Many of them will offer lead type cups that can be attached to a symphonic type back-bore to soften the sound. This is exactly what I did; only I don't play symphonic at all so I just stick with the lead sound.

There are many different companies out there who make multi piece mouth pieces. The one I choose was XStream mad by John Eth. For me it was more about comfort than anything. Plus I was lucky enough to find what works for me fairly quickly and the prices were very reasonable.

HERMOKIWI post is very good; I'd go back and re-read it. It seems like you have already grasped the concept that the equipment will not give you what you don't already have. It can only help. I always say, find a MP that is comfortable and helps you achieve the desired sound, and then play it... Have fun.

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FranklinPlaysTrumpet · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:38 am Post subject:

Thanks for all of the good advice guys! I really appreciate all of the input. Garrett I'm at a point where I'm at a point where I have to decide whether I am a player that can switch out mouthpieces based on the style I'm asked to play. I think I'm going to go ask a couple of mouthpieces. One more question though, where would I be able to try second hand mouthpieces? At a local music store?
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Blue Trane · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:56 am Post subject:

My main mouthpiece is also a 1-1/2C. I use it for most all classical playing. When playing in the section or lead in a jazz ensemble I felt the 1-1/2C didn't fit sound wise and was too big/too much work for most books. I've been having good success with 3C and 3D type mouthpieces specifically the Kanstul B3C, CD 3D, 3C 42M - all 3 have the same rim. Give Kanstul or Curry 3 rim sized mouthpieces a try.

RobS · Regular Member Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Posts: 46

I play a Karl Hammond 4mv (.655) for classical which is about the same as a bach 3c. I wanted to have a little more 'zing' in my sound for big band and pop band playing and stumbled over an old marcinkiewicz E13 Chuck Findley (.0681!) I purchased more than 10 years ago. It plays great with a better lead sound and it equals to a 1c. Maybe that's worth a try?

BRM2 · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:53 am Post subject:

You have received a lot of great advice in the previous post.

I also want to encourage you to stay on that 1 1/2C for the bulk of your playing. That should always be your home base. Only make slight adjustments when trying lead pieces.

For a little bit more help with lead work, I am also recommending Curry Mouthpieces. They are great pieces and you can't beat their price. When I was in High School, I could not afford $200+ mouthpiece

You should first try Curry's 1.5M. The cup is slightly shallower than a "C" cup and the backbore is only slightly smaller than a Bach 10 backbore. The throat is also a very relaxed 27 throat. I believe this mouthpiece will give you a little assistance with the upper register and still give you a good sound in all of your registers. It is a great crossover piece. You will not have to change the way you blow in order to get this mouthpiece to respond for you. It will be the least dramatic change for you.

My second recommendation is the Curry 70M. If the more rounded rim is comfortable for you, this piece would be a great option too. The shape of the cup makes it a very effiecient piece which will allow you to access the upper register pretty easily and definitely put a lot more edge on your sound. Again, it has a 27 throat and a slightly smaller backbore than your Bach, and I think it will be the least dramatic change for you.

I played on a Bach 1 Megatone my sophomore year of high school on. I even bored it out after I joined the Army. Many years later, I had to play the lead book for Big Band which led to my mouthpiece safai.(A Curry 1Z saved my life the day before my first Big Band concert playing lead.) I eventually settled on a Curry 1M for everything.

Later, I wanted more on the lead side of the house and I eventually started playing a Marcinkiewicz E13 C. Findley for evertyhing. I learned how to play a very wide and shallow lead piece. While I had a good sound for lead work(definitely mic'd stuff too), my sound did not seem big enough for other things and I lost a lot of the overtones in my sound.

I just recently tried a Flip Oakes 1-L, and while it is slightly more difficult to get around, the sound makes it worth giving it a good try.

Summary:
1. Establish the sound you want.
2. Keep that 1 1/2C as home base(only making slight adjustments when trying moutpieces_
3. Curry 1.5M
4. Curry 70M
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crzytptman · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject:

I was the exact same in HS. I was originally tricked into the 1-1/2C by some devious upper classmen who said it was a high note mpc. Well, it backfired on them when I joined them in HS with a thunderous high F!

I agree that Reeves/Curry/Flip Oakes would compliment quite nicely. I like the Mt. Vernon rims. I played a Kanstul copy 1-1/2C for a while. I am using Flips 3-L for lead now to compliment my Mt. Vernon 3C. I suggest you call Flip and try one of his 1-1/2's, as they have Mt. Vernon copied rims.
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garrett901 · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject:

cheiden · Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject:

I know a number of successful players who use either some variant of the Bach 1-1/2C or 3C for the bulk of their playing who switch to a similar size Reeves piece for lead-type playing. To my lips the Reeves 43N is a pretty easy transition.
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rufflicks · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:21 am Post subject:

Try a Bach 1 E. Low cost, close in rim size, makes a good pic piece; might just be the ticket. You can ask if a 1 1/2 E is available, not sure if they make one. If they make a 1 ½ mv that would be a good option as well. You will spend a lot of dads money on the hunt. Go easy on him try the Bach first; wait till you figure this out a bit before you spend $200 a pop on boutique stuff.
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Flip Oakes · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:41 am Post subject:

Flip Oakes "Wild Thing Mouthpieces" In Stock!

**New** Flip Oakes Model “L” Bb Trumpet Mouthpieces with Shallow lead mpc. cup #26 bore
large backbore. This is a very versatile mpc. though it’s shallow, it get’s a big open sound, and can be used for all types of playing. Though it’s bright, it still have a full spectrum of sound. $75.00

Another suggestion is either:

A) Bb Trumpet Med. Cup for all around playing #27 bore. $75.00

**New** Flip Oakes Model “O” Bb Trumpet Med. Cup for all around playing #26 bore. It also has a large backbore. This is a very versatile mpc. much like the ‘L’ series mpc., only with a med. deep cup. it produces a big open sound, and can be used for all types of playing, with a full spectrum of sound. $75.00
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shofarguy · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:18 am Post subject:

I can add my encouragement to give Flip's L series a try. I am using my 5-L almost exclusively, now. It gives a hearty core to one's sound, great range and agility for fast technical passages, while remaining fairly flexible and expressive.

I have used it in my Wild Thing Bb, my Benge 5X, and in the new Kanstul 1410 Conservatory C/Bb convertible trumpet. They all seem to respond well and sound good. Flip likes to say that the L and O series make your horn sound like it's being EQ'd, but live without a mic.

Brian
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rufflicks · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject:

Baby steps... baby steps, get a hold of a smaller Bach. You are on a 1 ½ C go to a slightly smaller cup depth with a rim that is similar or the same and see how it plays. Try what Bach has to offer in the 1 seies. Not too many are addressing the fact you have a fantastic range with the 1 ½ C. There is no need at this point to go to a radical lead piece. The 14a4a felt bad because you changed every aspect of the mouthpiece. Baby steps, keep the variables limited. If you are near a big city call the big instrument store in town ask if they have used mouthpieces. This will expand your selection of boutique pieces tried by others and discarded. You can ask if they have any of the pieces mentioned by others in this thread. It is cheep and easy to get a Bach 1 D and/or 1 E $40 each from musicians friend. They share a 17.00 mm rim in common with the 1 ½ C. Both smaller cups same rim. If they don't get you what you are looking for keep them for a future aplication; trust me you will find one. Baby steps.

Good luck.

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