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Curing Your "tired" Lips


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Mr.Music14
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:33 pm    Post subject: Curing Your "tired" Lips Reply with quote

I know this has probably been talked about but I don't know because I am new to Trumpetherald
Anyways...
I am in highschool and I usually play first and after two or three songs of higher notes my lips start to "give out" or start to hurt and I can hardly hit anything high

So does anyone know of any thing to help make my lips last longer?
Or somthing to do to make them not hurt so bad

I know Practice Practice Practice but even then my lips start to "give out"

Thanks for your time,

Joey
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SpencerW
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having just gone back to the drawing board on high register, I know what you're talking about. The biggest thing is pressure. Using too much pressure on your lips will kill your lips and range. I've taken steps on limiting the pressure I use by playing drills at a PP level, and holding the trumpet with my left hand functioning as a sort of hook. My right hand only touches the valves. I do this for practice, not performance since I like the stability of holding the trumpet a little tighter, but I still don't try and jam back.

Rest is also important. Resting as much as you play is really important.

Hope this helps!
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You well get a lot of advice here. Some of it quite lengthy and detailed. read it all and use what makes sense...

With that said, the short answer is: It's not so much what you practice, it's how. Practice with purpose, systematically. practice DOES NOT make perfect! practicing perfectly, makes perfect... Rest as much as you play. You will be developing muscle and coordinated muscle movement... It takes time, repetition and rest... There are no short-cuts!!!
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of young players practice playing high by bringing as much strength as they can to the effort. This usually includes blowing hard, pressing hard and pinching lips. Once you get another half step higher you keep ratcheting up the effort to get to the next one assuming that you're getting stronger. This ingrains that playing high is hard and trains you to beat youself up whenever you get above the staff.

Instead of focusing on playing ever higher and louder you need a practice routine that focusing on playing up to the top of your usable range as efficiently as possible. If you're going to be able to play up there for long you have to find a way to do it without the Herculean effort. There are lots of different methods available that work on finessing the upper register (Stamp, Irons,...). Once you can play to the top of your usable range with relative ease (slured, tongued, pp, chromatic, intervals) then you should have an easier time progressing to the next half step higher.
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trplayer22
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only cure for muscle fatigue in the lips is rest.

Also, you should be working to play as efficiently as you can. It sounds like you may be working too hard upstairs and that is why you tire so quickly up there. A way to work on this is to play scales, clarke's ect. very softly in the low register.

I work on soft playing 15-20 minutes daily and I find that helpful in making playing the horn overall much easier.

If you are experiencing pain from pressure, you should stop playing immediately. I have seen many people hurt themselves pretty bad by ignoring pain of that kind.

When you are playing your parts in rehearsals in school, I would caution you in thinking about your lips so much. All you should really be focusing on when you are in that situation is breathing in a relaxed manner and hearing the music in your head as clear as possible. When I have approached playing in this way, I always get better results.

Good luck!

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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your lips tire very quickly,you're most likely using too much pressure caused by trying to play too loud. Never play more than 80% of your volume. Work more on projection not volume.
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PacoTheTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get private lessons with the best teacher you can find. There has been good advice posted in this thread, but having someone to guide you as you improve and experiment is essential for your long term growth. Practice with extremely focused attention on the sound you are making. Find recordings of the way you would like to play, and imitate what you are hearing. Try to hear as much good playing live as possible. The thing about endurance is that strength is only a part of a much bigger picture. You want to develop habits that allow you to produce a really excellent and resonant sound, and then refine and reinforce them to keep you playing that way all the way through a performance. A good private teacher will help you along in these efforts through regular assessment and advice.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My son, when he was in high school, went through the same thing. He played extremely well, with a strong natural upper register. He was a natural lead player. When I finally convinced him to take a long, slow warm up, his endurance, especially in the upper register, was greatly improved. As is with many high school players, they tend to want to take the horn out of the case, and proceed to play as high and loud as they can. This is a recipe for disaster. Of course excessive pressure can be an endurance killer too. Studying with Jimmy Stamp taught me the importance of a proper warm up. This has served me well and it has also served my son well.
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stanton
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Curing Your "tired" Lips Reply with quote

Mr.Music14 wrote:
I am in highschool and I usually play first and after two or three songs of higher notes my lips start to "give out" or start to hurt and I can hardly hit anything high

So does anyone know of any thing to help make my lips last longer?


Joey,

I appreciate what you're going thru. You've had some good advice already. But if you love playing trumpet as we all do here, you are going to want to make sure you don't do anything to hurt your playing long term...

It is obvious that you are a good enough player to play 1st... but YOU ARE NOT MECHANICALLY SOUND ENOUGHYET. This can lead to permanent chop damage. Believe me. I have been down that road.

1a) You must find a *really* good teacher that can help you with efficiency AND TAKE LESSONS FREQUENTLY. Range and endurance comes easier to some folks than others. Lips are like reeds. There are some good ones, and some that need to be swapped out. But you can't swap out your lips. You just need to learn to work with them. It may require you to put your ego away for awhile and not play like you used to for a bit, but when you redevelop your mechanics you will be a monster player. If you do not work on getting your mechanics to work for you, you will never be able to focus on the music. You'll always be worrying about endurance, range and your mental focus will be there instead of making music.

1b) You may (with the help of your instructor) have to find the mouthpiece that is best suited for your efficiency. Does your current mouthpiece allow you to play the softest sound possible with no effort and a breath attack?

2) If you are in band, there is nothing written in stone that you have to play every note of every piece! I was given this lecture by a nationally well known teacher who chided me about this AFTER I blew up my chops. She said: a) If you're playing principal (band) you don't have to play every note. Rest before big stuff and trade off with your stand mate. b) Don't play when the rest of the section has unison with the first part. Let the rest of the section carry the water. c) Don't play oom-pahs unless they are *really* important to the ensemble. d) When you're tired its ok to take some stuff down an octave (especially if you're not principal). e) On pre-concert warmup rehearsals, if your band director (especially if not a brass player) has them, play *very* sparingly (if at all). There are only so many bullets in the gun.

Now, once you have developed efficiency in your playing you will probably be able to play all day long and not get tired. Then you can forget most of what I just said above. The toughest part of it is resisting the pressure of playing high and loud- because you can- at least for a little while. You will find that once you find the efficiency in your playing, one day a little switch will go off and you'll have range and endurance to burn. Just take it easy until you get there.

Other caveats: Rest as much as you play. Be efficient in your practice by rehearsing the part mentally, singing your part and fingering the notes. The horn doesn't necessarily have to be on your face to practice. This will extend your practice time. By doing the singing/fingering practice between every practice passage it will insure that you will rest as much as you play. If you try something and miss, give yourself three opportunities. If you can't do it by the third time, come back to it another time. It may be an indication that you are tired. Do not force things when you are tired. It will only cause you to practice bad mechanics- which your subconscious mind will resort to when its performance time.

Sorry for the lecture. Good luck.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:

Instead of focusing on playing ever higher and louder you need a practice routine that focusing on playing up to the top of your usable range as efficiently as possible. If you're going to be able to play up there for long you have to find a way to do it without the Herculean effort. There are lots of different methods available that work on finessing the upper register (Stamp, Irons,...). Once you can play to the top of your usable range with relative ease (slured, tongued, pp, chromatic, intervals) then you should have an easier time progressing to the next half step higher.


Lots of sound advice here, but this really made a difference for me.
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alonshofar
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Play low on the pitch and always breath on time, let the air do it. Ask your teacher about this, undersatnding these concepts really made a diference in my playing.
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Curing Your "tired" Lips Reply with quote

Mr.Music14 wrote:
I know this has probably been talked about but I don't know because I am new to Trumpetherald
Anyways...
I am in highschool and I usually play first and after two or three songs of higher notes my lips start to "give out" or start to hurt and I can hardly hit anything high

So does anyone know of any thing to help make my lips last longer?
Or somthing to do to make them not hurt so bad

I know Practice Practice Practice but even then my lips start to "give out"

Thanks for your time,

Joey


I almost want to draw bets on which mouthpiece he is using. My first guess is something within the spectrum of Bach 3C to 7C. Pure speculation but I'm probably fairly close.

A young person in high school usually hasn't put together a solid embouchure yet. So struggling with a too deep mouthpiece is a major hurdle. Practice can help. However my suggestion would be to find a mouthpiece that allows you to blow a solid G Top of the staff fairly easily and without anything more than normal mouthpiece contact pressure.

Be sure to pucker or cushion your lips against the metal of the mouthpiece. Aids endurance and develops tone/range. And put a lot of air support behind the horn.

But back to mouthpieces: Whatever you are using consider an experiment with something shallower. If you know Schilke or Yamaha mouthpiece numbers try using a "B" or "A" cup instead of the regular size. Like if you use say a 13 Schilke this is really a 13"C". The "C" being redundant as it is always meant when not listed. So try a 13B first and then the 13A.

Or ask your experienced brass salesman at the local musical instrument store for a shallower piece within your current brand's size.

People scoff at this stuff but I've seen it work too many times.

The larger pieces are good for those beginners whom they work well for. However that group is the minority. The great bulk of beginners and intermediate players should go to a slightly smaller mouthpiece than the standard fare. Or in some cases a very small mouthpiece. We're looking for positive results and ease of playing. The 19th and 20th century larger mouthpiece advice is failing in that regard. Most of the time anyway.

A solid professional who plays all day long is a better fit for the really big mouthpieces. When you play six hours a day almost any mouthpiece works well. At that point you're in strong shape.
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JobyMF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its all in the pedal tones!
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OrchestraTrump
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going through the same thing right now. I have a somewhat good endurance, but after 20-30 minutes of playing near the top of the staff, my lips are shot, and I get barely get a D in the staff out of my horn.

The most important thing is: Rest as much as you play. Also, use the least amount of pressure as possible when playing, or else your sound will slowly decline in terms of fullness and richness, resulting in less endurance.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would look into how your are breathing (inhaling and exhaling) and supporting the tone before I'd worry about your lips. A lot of very fine players will close off the lungs in the same manner one's body does right before a cough once their breathing apparatus starts to tire. Look there first, if the wind and support are there the lips should last longer.
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OrchestraTrump
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a large and in-depth tip, or many tips, to help you. John Mohan sent this to me and I think it might help you.


"First off, it is not all about your lips. All they have to do is vibrate. The muscles that you are overusing are possibly your expiration muscles (blowing muscles) of your abdomen, back and chest (ribcage area), and most likely the muscles around your lips (your facial muscles).

I wrote the "possibly" and the "most likely" above because you are probably trying to rely too much on face muscles to play and not enough on your air power and control of the air power via the forward arching tongue. The trick is to use the air properly. Let the air save the lips.

Don't be overly lip-conscious - it leads to all sorts of problems, both real and imagined.

Here are some tips:

1) Always, always, always take a full breath, even if you're going to play just one note.

2) Never get below half empty (except when doing an exercise where you are purposefully playing until you are empty in order to develop the blowing muscles).

3) When practicing, rest as much as you play with the horn off the mouth. This means if you are doing an exercise that took 10 seconds to play, get the horn off your mouth and rest 10 seconds before going onto the next exercise. When practicing longer things (songs, solos, and etudes) break them into 8 or 16 bar segments. Play through a segment, then rest with the horn off your mouth before going onto the next segment.

In summary, build up, don't tear down.

If you just follow the three above rules until they become habit, your endurance will probably double.

In my opinion, 90 minutes of practice per day would be the absolute max I'd assign you. I'd be more likely to make it around 60 minutes of playing broken up into 4 sessions of approximately 15 minutes each.

Typical Long tones are a waste of time. Better to do things like Clarke Technical Studies instead of long tones. Moving around, articulating and fingering serves much more for you in terms of development then just sitting on a note for 30 seconds, and is less likely to leave you all tight.

Note that the Maggio/Gordon style of arpeggio exercise where you play a chord down to a low note and hold it as long as you have air and longer, trying to crescendo as you run out of air to really work the blowing muscles is not a typical long tone study. The point of these is not to see how long you can hold the note, but rather to get the air out, and then really try to squeeze any remaining air out. This is the only type of exercise I know of which specifically develops the blowing muscles, which are the real basis for the upper register.

Most players think their lips, "lip strength" or their embouchure (which they always perceive as somehow being faulty) are the basis and/or limit for their upper register. The lips really have nothing to do with it. You could have lips strong enough to lift up a piano, and still not get above low C without airpower and control of that airpower via the forward arching tongue. (Think eee as in "sea" with your tongue for high notes and ah as in "aw" with your tongue for lower notes).

Your practice routine should consist of flexibility studies (Matt Graves's book "Fundamental Flexibilities" would be appropriate), Technical Studies (Clarke's "Technical Studies for the Cornet"), Air Power and Range Development material (The Part 1 and Part 2 exercises throughout Claude Gordon's book "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice for Trumpet") and perhaps some solo, etude or other literature practice added to the routine after a month of two of just doing the flexibility, technical, and power/range studies.

Using the above approach to practice allowed me to develop enough trumpet ability to work full time as a professional player and develop a practice register up to G above Double High C.

I strongly urge you to buy the book "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing" by Claude Gordon. It is a short text-only book that will teach you everything you need to know about the mechanics of trumpet playing, and how to develop trumpet playing ability.

Best wishes,

John Mohan"
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quincytrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a fellow high school trumpet player in the same situation. My lips were badly bruised... I think this was mainly due to the repertoire we are playing...Almost half of "Carmina Burana"- just to name one of five pieces. A few weeks ago my endurance wasn't strong. I'd be able to hit a few high Cs... then I would be done. However, two weeks ago I contracted a throat infection, and took a Friday off. I essentially had a three day weekend, and thought it would be wise to not touch the trumpet. But when I got back to school, my tone was clearer, my range was great, and my endurance improved.

I read an article by Philip Myers, Principal Horn of the New York Philharmonic. When he was asked how much time he spent practicing each day. And he replied "One hour." He said that when he was younger, he experienced a lot of problems. He went to his teacher, and his teacher told him that if he was having production, or endurance problems, it was a result of him practicing "...too much" instead of "...too little...". It is with this that I encourage you to examine your practice routine, your repertoire in band, and any other activities related to trumpet... and ask your self "Am I overdoing this?" And maybe it would be necessary to take a few days off.

Also, I find that massaging your lips (particularly the bottom lip) in between inactivity helps. The way I do it is I curl in my bottom lip (as if your pretending to be an old person with no teeth), then taking your thumb and index fingers on either side... Then squeeze your fingers and bring them apart. It's kind of hard to explain, but hopefully you get the gist.

Hope this helps.

Q
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Curing your "tired" lips Reply with quote

I'm amazed that so many people have THE ANSWER to this young man's problems. Is there one answer or more than one interacting factors? I don't think there is enough information from the OP to give a really good answer.

It's always a possibility to seek advice from a teacher, but we don't really know why this young man chose to ask here rather than get one. In fact, we don't even know whether he has one or not.

We don't really know whether he practices too much or too little, either of which could lead to the problem he indicates. We also don't know what kind of equipment he uses and whether the horn or the mpc [some people have suggested the latter is a factor] is partly or completely at fault.

We don't know how this person forms his/her embouchure or whether it is a good formation for him/her or not. We also don't know whether excessive pressure is an issue or not.

I think many good possibilities have been suggested for this person to consider, but I don't know how you'd decide on which is/are best.

I wonder if the OP is interested in providing more info or whether he/she has any opinions about what's been suggested.

This seems to happen a lot on TH. Someone provides a problem and minimal info and then people go galloping off in all directions and even propose a complete pedagogical approach (the one that worked for them) when one question was asked and there just isn't enough info to give even a short answer.

On many multiple choice tests, one of the answers is "cannot be determined from the information given" and I think that is the correct, if somewhat unhappy answer to the original question, as asked.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Curing your "tired" lips Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
This seems to happen a lot on TH. Someone provides a problem and minimal info and then people go galloping off in all directions and even propose a complete pedagogical approach (the one that worked for them) when one question was asked and there just isn't enough info to give even a short answer.


All too often, the answer to [any question] is [whatever I do], without almost any useful information about the specific problem that is needing to be solved.

Of course, that's the inherent problem with a forum of this type. The people asking the questions don't include all the important details, and many of them can not really be explained well in text anyway. You would need to see them and hear them to really understand what they're saying.

Plus, the people answering (apart from a few really experienced teachers here) don't really have the ability to answer with solutions /other/ than what works for them personally. You know what works for you, and very often, not what works for some other person you've never met or heard play.

Example: Somebody asks "which mouthpiece should I get, a Robotron 3000 Ultra-Whizbang, or a Kaleidoscope BFM-9000?" You get 4 types of responses, of which only one is valid:

1) The Robotron 3000 Ultra-Whizbang is the best mouthpiece ever, I use it and love it. Buy one immediately.

2) The Kaleidoscope BFM-9000 is the best mouthpiece ever, I use it and love it. Buy one immediately.

3) Neither of them is any good at all, I've tried them both and hated them. You should be using a [insert whatever the respondent plays on a given day of the year].

4) "We can't tell you what mouthpiece will work best for you, because we're all different".

Version 4 is pretty much the only answer that has any real truth in it, but is the most likely to be the one ignored by the OP.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject: Curing your "tired" lips Reply with quote

Randy,

Quote:
The people asking the questions don't include all the important details, and many of them can not really be explained well in text anyway. You would need to see them and hear them to really understand what they're saying
.

I don't entirely agree. There are some things that would need to be heard, but in this case, there just aren't enough details stated to know what to suggest. If the relevant details were there, maybe someone, or even a lot of experienced players, could suggest something that would work, without hearing anything. If this young person is not practicing enough, he/she would get tired eight away at practice, but the cure would be different if the person were over-practicing. These are only two possibilities. There are certainly others.

I also disagree that all of us would suggest just what would work for us. Some do this, but others have a broader framework and know that some things work for this type of player, but other things will work for someone else. This is what attracted me to the Reinhardt system, but there are other people (Pops McLaughlin is one) who approach things differently depending on how the person plays. There are a number or players here who have a rather balanced view of trumpet playing that includes more than "just get these books and do what I did for X years" and can answer a specific question with a specific, targeted answer
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