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Sticking valves on new, Bach 180-37...how often to oil?


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FrankM
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Location: Lincolnshire England

PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm convinced the piston casings do soak up oil. On my old Vincent motorcycle the parallellogram action of the front forks pivots on bronze bushes which have to be marinated in oil for a week before fitting. This is supposed to give lubrication for life. Surely piston casings take up oil similarly. Don't see why it would make the pistons stick though. Quite the reverse you might think, if Phil Vincent was correct. Cheers, Frank.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FrankM wrote:
I'm convinced the piston casings do soak up oil. On my old Vincent motorcycle the parallellogram action of the front forks pivots on bronze bushes which have to be marinated in oil for a week before fitting. This is supposed to give lubrication for life. Surely piston casings take up oil similarly. Don't see why it would make the pistons stick though. Quite the reverse you might think, if Phil Vincent was correct. Cheers, Frank.


Exactly right, Frank. The issue with close fitting trumpet valves and synthetic valve oil is that synthetics have designed into them elements that create a slippery boundary layer that sticks to both the piston and casing. This can prohibit the final honing of the parts as they slide across each other. This "break-in", "mating", or "seating" process is accounted for when the manufacturer develops the processes that produce the final product.

For example, Kanstul valves are meant to be close fitting with minimal clearances as a design goal. The truth is that some are a little too tight, out of round in some way, or any number of variances that are within accepted tolerances. Zig has made the decision to position his products in a place withing the industry that allows for some less-than-ideal initial results, as long as they only require widely accepted solutions, such as a break-in period. The resultant instrument is quite precise over its lifetime, but not so labor intensive as to shift it into a higher market segment.

My guess is that this is also the case with our friend's new trumpet.

My advice to use petroleum oil requires that the synthetic be stripped away. There are two reasons for this. The obvious one is what I stated above, namely that the oil molecules are designed to stick to the case and piston, so even with typical cleaning and swabbing, a boundary layer will still remain. Secondly, these leftovers may react with the petroleum oil and cause gumminess.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brass abd Bronze bearing are some times sintered with wax and oil when being pressed from powder into a solid bearing. They are not seen much any more but you still run into them.

All metal if porous will sock up some oil. The more porous the deeper it soaks in.

This is why you need to use heat to properly degrease metal parts...For instance if I soaked an engine block in strong solvents cold and scrubbed it out really well then used tide in a power washer I would not have all the grease out not if that block has been used for years and years. If I put brown paper under it and popped it into an oven at 350F for 30-40 minutes when we pulled it out you would see all kinds of oil weeping out of the block. That is why a part is not properly decreased until it has been heat decreased. This is also way so many shops used to use hot tanks because they where able to combine caustic chemicals with heat in one application that would do a two steep job in one steep! This is also how capillary action works with penetrating oils. The pours int he metal represent paths of least resistance and just like a capillary tube that is used to draw blood from pin pricks to babies feet or finger's the liquid be it blood ot oil moves to the area of least resistance.

I hate to bust your bubble Brian but White Vinegar is Distilled water and 5% max acetic acid. Neither water or acetic acid will touch oil be it Extra Virgin Olive Oil or Synthetic Valve Oil. If it would you would not have to shake your bottle of Italian dressing to mix it up long enough to get it out of the bottle and onto your food.

All oils except for Ester Based oils and no one use's those in trumpet oil at all are non-polar so water will not disolve it or disperse it or grab hold of it. Soap has one end that that is polar and one end that is not polar. The non-polar end grabs hold of the oil,grease or anything else that is non-polar then when you add water the polar end of that molecule grabs hold of the water and the water caries it away while it is still holding on to the oil. In order to remove grease you have to have a strong acid like one of the following:

Hydroiodic acid HI (pKa = −9.3)
Hydrobromic acid HBr (pKa = −8.7)
Perchloric acid HClO4 (pKa ≈ −
Hydrochloric acid HCl (pKa = −6.3)
Sulfuric acid H2SO4 (first dissociation only, pKa1 ≈ −3)
p-Toluenesulfonic acid (pKa = −2. Organic soluble strong acid

Their are stronger but all of these diluted with distilled water to something between 10%-20% by volume would be needed to chemical remove oil and Vinegar is not even close to being strong enough to do that. If you have any doubts put a few drops of olive oil in a glass of vinegar and watch how nothing happens except you get closer to having a nice salad dressing!

Alkali's work just as good as acids if they are strong enough to remove grease. That purple stuff I told you about that is a just like Castrol Super Clean has Sodium Hydroxide or to us older folks "lye" as one of it's ingredients it also has surfactants and other really good cleaning agents in it. I think their are something like 6 ingredients in it and all of them by themselves will cut grease,wax,and most adhesives. I used it to remove melted black crayon from a load of laundry and from a dryer. If it will take off melted crayon with out typical fast evaporating cancer causing petro solvents it will remove valve oil! You can dilute it for all kinds of house hold use's so 1 $5 gallon will last most people a long long time for general cleaning. For routine kitchen cleaning I mix it 1 part Castrol super clean 6 parts water in a spray jug. I kep[ one spray jug at 50/50 and one 100%. I always start off witht he weakest stuff and work my way up.LOL

Oh some people are sensitive to it when used 100% so keep some Nitrile gloves on hand or kitchen latex ones alkali can burn skin worse then acid.
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Norman
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Sticking valves on new, Bach 180-37...how often to oil? Reply with quote

bluetranemiles wrote:
This just has me a little worried. I'm getting some sticking valve issues on my new Bach Stradivarius (still under mfg. warranty). Third valve seems to be the most prone to sticking. I use all ultra pure products, including their oils and greases on slides. Have been trying to oil the valves everyday, sometimes forget. I have a pretty clean, vertical valve strike. I did the proper break-in thing of wiping down the valves in the early weeks to get rid of the black stuff. A little bit of yellow (mineral?) deposits on valves. Time to try a new valve oil? I thought Ultra Pure was the best and had success with it on my previous Conn horn. Any input would be great.

Thanks,
Reid


The fact that it's the third valve having the most trouble makes me think it's a matter of cleaning the valves properly.

Check out this video:


Link


I used to just soak the pistons in soap and water, and then rinse. Occasionally I too had the third valve sticking. Ever since I started to clean the casings and the pistons this way, with a lot of soap and making a lot of suds, I never had any problem with valves. Just clean it thoroughly, and you probably won't have any problem again.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you're right, John, but I used White vinegar on my Benge pistons when they had been gummed up with La Tromba (nee T2) synthetic valve oil. After two or three careful washings with my favorite degreaser/dish soap, the residue would still foul the petroleum oil I had sitched to and gum up my valves. After soaking and washing with the vinegar, they stopped gumming up and the new valve oil worked fine.

The vinegar also brightened up the raw brass parts pretty noticeably and seemed to reveal an added luster to the silver plating, especially the knurling. It's safe to use and, for me, it did the job I needed it to do.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas
Co-founder and President of nPart
brian@npart.co

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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bluetranemiles
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Joined: 28 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the ideas. I actually did the "super foamy" valve-casing cleaning and I think that helped a lot. We'll see over the next few days of practice. Aren't standard dish soaps designed to cut grease/oil?
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Norman
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, I too use Hetman 1, and it's really fantastic.
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oljackboy
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Dawn dishwashing liquid. Aaron Beck told me that it was the best at removing oily residue.
That Monette tutorial was really good. Thanks.
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bluetranemiles
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With my hyper-organic wife in the house, I used Seventh Generation with its fewer harsh chemicals. http://www.seventhgeneration.com/Free-and-Clear/Dish-Soap

If problems continue, maybe I'll need to pick up some Dawn!
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