• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Mt. Vernon vs. Elkhart Bach Trumpets



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Darrellcrews
New Member


Joined: 26 May 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Mt. Vernon vs. Elkhart Bach Trumpets Reply with quote

What are the distinct differences between Bach trumpets made in Mt.Vernon and Elkhart?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ravel
Regular Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 84

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 7624
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stamp on the bell?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rockford
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 2087
Location: Northern VA

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon vs. Elkhart Bach Trumpets Reply with quote

Darrellcrews wrote:
What are the distinct differences between Bach trumpets made in Mt.Vernon and Elkhart?
This is a pretty complex question but there are some generalities that can answer your question. There was a major design change around 1956-7 (serial number 16K) in Bach Stradivarius trumpets so, in general, the older Mt. Vernon's are substantially different than the early Elkharts. The Mt. Vernon's made after '57 are a lot like the Elkhart's with the general exception of the bells and leadpipe length. The late Mt. Vernons had unmarked 37 and 43 bells in approximately equal numbers and the Elkharts have the 37 as the standard bell. There were problems with the shorter leadpipe so Selmer restored the original length leadpipe at some point after they took over production in Mt. Vernon. So, in general, the Elkhart Strads are similar in design to the Mt. Vernon's that were made after Selmer bought the company. Whew!
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY and Mt. Vernon Bach Bb trumpets and cornets. Bach Artisan C, Bach C cornet, Schilke G, Yamaha Eb and D, piccolo A/Bb, flugelhorn, Monette, Hammond and Warburton mouthpieces. Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Genz-Benz amps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tom turner
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 6577
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Mt. Vernon vs. Elkhart Bach Trumpets Reply with quote

Darrellcrews wrote:
What are the distinct differences between Bach trumpets made in Mt.Vernon and Elkhart?


Pretty much covered already but here's some more differences:

1. Change of ownership
2. Made in different states
3. Made by entirely different workers
4. Made using different tooling.
5. The first owner made limited numbers, the latter converted the operation to make LOTS of horns eventually
6. The open-wrap, semi-round bell bead was eliminated - BIG DIFFERENCE
7. The bell material was cut and made differently
8. The same model horns were of different weights USUALLY
9. The wrap changed in 56 or so from the original F. Besson wrap to a "taller" tuning slide wrap thereafter (mentioned earlier)
10. Small pieces changed a lot in detail and weight through the Mt. Vernon years
11. Mt. Vernons could be quite inconsistent . . . less so later on but still troubling for many, many years.

BUT . . . AFTER FIFTY PLUS YEARS . . .

The biggest difference you'll find in vintage specimens will be . . . the difference in those particular specimens!

You can't simply buy these vintage horns blind and expect to be totally satisfied each and every time . . . or even most of the time. Playing the lottery might be more rewarding.

This all being said . . .

Some of the finest horns ever came from both periods . . . and some real dogs came out too. Try before you buy . . . unless you just plan to collect horns and lock 'em behind a glass case to get an ego boost when trumpet friends drop over.

Still . . . if you find a nice player . . . it will be rewarding indeed, probably.
_________________
Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rockford
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 2087
Location: Northern VA

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points Tom. Just wanted to add that these instruments evolved over time and didn't change simply because the factory location changed. Small design changes happened all the time. From around 1924-1961 Bach evolved from a small custom trumpet maker to a still relatively small assembly line factory operation that maintained many custom shop aspects. Inconsistency is an interesting subject with Bach trumpets and is often cited as a negative when it was actually a positive. Bach tried to offer many instruments that all differed slightly in sound and response because, as he wrote, "everybody has a different idea of what they are looking for". A good example of this is his use of both the 37 and 43 bells without marketing or marking the difference on the horns. In general they have different sounds but it was left up to the player/customer to decide, based on play testing what they wanted. Still, some instruments simply came out better than others for reasons I don't think even Vincent Bach understood. I imagine some of his craftsmen were better than others. Anyway, after 50 years it's almost impossible to know how a particular instrument played when it left the factory. Pads and corks wear out, valves leak and slides get loose after many years of use and parts simply change with age. Often some custom "improvements" are made over the years which can have varying results. Anyone searching for "consistency" in 50+ year old NY and Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets is sure to be disappointed.
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY and Mt. Vernon Bach Bb trumpets and cornets. Bach Artisan C, Bach C cornet, Schilke G, Yamaha Eb and D, piccolo A/Bb, flugelhorn, Monette, Hammond and Warburton mouthpieces. Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Genz-Benz amps.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandyTX
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 3459
Location: Central Texas

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
Bach tried to offer many instruments that all differed slightly in sound and response because, as he wrote, "everybody has a different idea of what they are looking for". A good example of this is his use of both the 37 and 43 bells without marketing or marking the difference on the horns. In general they have different sounds but it was left up to the player/customer to decide, based on play testing what they wanted.


Keep in mind when you're thinking about how that would be today, they didn't have internet sales and people weren't ordering a horn from Dillon on "spec". You could walk into a music store and quite literally try out a dozen different examples of a Bach strad all afternoon, then decide which one you liked best and take it home. The idea above of making them all different so as to be able to provide more people with what they were looking for was quite good in that business model.

To fork slightly on this topic, when exactly (if anybody knows) did Bach switch the "direction" of the 3rd valve stop rod assembly. I used to think it was post-MV horns didn't have them, but I think I've seen some MV horns with both styles. Not of major importance to sound production I think, but I've always liked the look of the version where the rod extends toward the valve block, rather than away from it. It also is less likely to get caught on things accidentally and potentially knock and get bent, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
acritzer
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 521
Location: Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have a Mt. Vernon that was sold Feb of '58, shop card does not list a completion date, but I would assume it was the end of '57...it has the stop rod pointing towards the valves. If that helps at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetera
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 923
Location: Gothenburg,Sweden

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And mine was sold on January 8th. 1958. It has the stop rod pointing towards the valveblock!

I think we have narrowed it down quite a bit!
_________________
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Bach 239 C, late 70's with original "Corporation" bell (!)
Malone/ Bach /Lechner C (put together)
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group