Once again...the Player Or the Horn

[Bozzaman]

I know we've discussed this matter in detail before, but here is a recent experience of mine.

I recently aquired a vintage (reasonably) "student" level trumpet, in very good condition. I've enjoyed playing on it while just having something next to me while I work. Just messing around.

I asked two people, both experienced musicians (not trumpet players), to listen to this horn side-by-side with my main, incredible Bb trumpet. Blind test. Both listeners prefered the "student" level horn to my main horn.

Here's my thoughts on this: first, I don't personally prefer the sound of the student horn over my main horn. Second, the student horn is actually more difficult to play in terms of getting a wide, full sound, matching the sound in all registers, valves, and a few other things. Third, when I have to, I can with some certainty make the two horns sound like quality horns, but NOT of the same timbre or tone. Different. But good sounding horns, nonetheless.

There's something to be said for comfort, feel, and reliability in a horn. I'll always play my main horn over the student horn, but darn if it doesn't sound great when it needs to.

The student horn is a copper-belled Conn Director.
_________________
BSC (Brass Sound Creations) Bb; Bach Mt. Vernon 1962 Bb; Conn 38B Constellation; Bach 239GH, 25S C; Kanstul CCT 920 Picc.; Schilke E3 D/Eb; Getzen Eterna Flugel; Courtois Cornet @ 1966; Naumann 3-Hole; Etc.

[hose]

Had this experience myself many times. Sometimes the guinea pigs don't give the right answers.
_________________
Dave Wisner

Powell Sig
Lawler Flugel
Curry

[lipshurt]

The old conn director is a direct descendant of the 22b. You can get those directors to play great. Im not at all surpised that a listener would prefer it.

My guess is that your main horn is better for playing soft with easy response and good articulation. But once you get to mf the director sounds real good. Clear and easy sounding. Your main horn may have a louder maximum volume too. Plus i bet the conn has great intonation from the middle of the staff all the way up.

There was a lot of "design" happening in the trumpet world back in the day. More than now where everything is a copy of a few classic designs
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.lipshurt.com
All of my posts are done with my phone on the fly, and it will sometimes auto-correct in some pretty unusual ways. Think of it like a crossword:)

[kehaulani]

I might have missed it, but it seems to me that you are assuming your friends' taste in a trumpet sound is the same as yours.
_________________
You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.

"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker

Schilke B7
Martin Committee (1956)
Connstellation 38B (1959)
Hans Hoyer G10 French Horn

[Don Herman rev2]

+1. Often, I find non-trumpet friends/acquaintances prefer the mellower sounding horn, whatever that may be.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[hose]

Every once in a while I have a lapse of judgement and ask my wife (flute/pic player) to describe or otherwise critique equipment I'm trying. She has played for almost 50 years, much of it in very good bands. Just about every time she picks the "brighter" more strident sound from A-B trials. I blame it on her college band days (school not divulged) where she formulated that sound in her head and it has stuck with her as the bench mark. I keep thinking that someday she'll get it right. Much of the time she just says, "It sounds like a trumpet." Maybe that's all we should ask for.
_________________
Dave Wisner

Powell Sig
Lawler Flugel
Curry

[John Mohan]

When doing any type of comparison tests, the only way to assess which horn, mouthpiece, or combination has the best sound is from out in front of the horn. What sounds good, bad, bright, dark, etc. to the player is almost immaterial.

First off, the player's ears are behind the bell, not out in front where an audience or microphone would be. Secondly, and of even more importance, a sizeable amount of the sound a player hears comes through his inner ear. Haven't we all played at one time or another with our ears plugged with foam to prevent hearing damage on loud gigs? Do you not still hear plenty of trumpet sound? And it sure doesn't sound the same that way, does it? Well, that sound is a fairly sizable part of the mix of sound you hear when your ears are not plugged.

I've been rather surprised at the assessments given to me by my wife and other good, critical listeners when I A/B test various equipment. Mouthpieces that I think sound darker actually sound brighter out front. And horns that I thought sounded good have received sub-par ratings by people with their ears out there where the audiences tend to be.

Find a good, trustworthy critical listener, or several, and leave tonality and sound judgments to them. You the player can and should assess the "feel" and the intonation qualities of the horn(s) and mouthpiece(s). But what sounds good to you might not sound good to those you want to perform for.

I suppose if the vast majority of one's work is studio recording work, then one could do A/B comparison's by recording their sound and listening back to it in order to hear what sounds best "on tape" (old school term). But who does almost nothing but recorded playing? Even the studio players who make most of the film and TV recordings also play for live audiences. And to get that type of work in the first place, you've got to sound good live to get noticed, referred, and eventually hired.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
14 Year Claude Gordon Student
1st Trpt for "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera",
"West Side Story", "Evita", "Grease",
Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", etc.
Burbank Benge 6x
Copy of a Mt Vernon 3C

[mikeman7]

John M laid down a good take and i agree. i would also add the reminder that most of the time, unless you have big money for custom equipment etc, our gear is made up of compromises. for example you mention the student horn being enjoyed by the two people listening to you, however from the player's POV that horn doesn't play as well. So we all make compromises with our gear based on what we think is most important. a couple of years ago i picked out a mpc and it was down to the final two. one played totally amazing, but the other had more of "the sound" i had in my head. i decided that "the sound" was more important, so i compromised on that.....
_________________
Late,
Mm

Yamaha YTR-6335
Monette B5
Yamaha Custom Tenor Sax YTS-875
SR Technologies Legend Mpc (metal)

[pfeifela]

[Branson]

You have made an interesting observation. When I read your post it reminded me of a similar situation many years ago while teaching at a (name withheld) university. I had my main horn in a shop for cleaning and I barrowed a student line trumpet from our instrument storage area. This was an average quality student line horn used in high brass techniques class and I was just happy that the valves went down and up. I played that thing with both our faculty brass quintet and faculty jazz quintet and got many compliments on my “new” horn.

I had the same opinion as you on wanting to play my good horn but it was interesting how people view top of the line and student line instruments when they are not aware of which of the two they are listening to.

[pfeifela]

Sometimes I wish it wasn't so much that way. I'd just invest in a Monette and elevate my playing by purchasing a superhorn. Of course, that would be too easy. But the take away for me is to never discount anything until you have heard it for yourself. AND, remember that you never really hear yourself because you are always behind the horn having a different experience than those out in front. I seek feedback from players I trust regularly on their opinion of what is taking place out front, and take every opportunity to record and critique my sound. Beyond that, I'll happily play a paper towel tube
_________________
Larry Pfeifer

[Tenoretrombe]

Has anyone had experience in recording his own A/B trials using good home digital recording (decent mics, A-D converter, digital recording (Audacity ?)). I've got all the parts, but could use a bit of guidance.

[Comeback]

Welcome to TH! You may or may not have noticed, but the thread you posted to is nearly a year old. You might not attract desired responses. I am just now developing basic home recording capabilities and have little to offer concerning A/B trialing, other than what I think is obvious; that being isolating efforts to one variable as you conduct your trials.
Jim
_________________
Bb Trumpets: 2000 Bach Stradivarius 180S37, 1972 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
Bb Cornet: 2008 Blessing XL-CR Shepherd's Crook
Flugelhorn: 1990 Blessing Artist

[DavesTrumpet]

[Craig Swartz]

I'd suggest if one is serious about choosing new equipment (not the case here), they do several blind tests with their colleagues. A fair number of years back I was trying some new C horns, (pre Yamaha "heavywalls" if you remember those) that the factory rep had brought to where I live during the summer. We were about to begin a big band rehearsal and I had the players, who included university staff members listen to some excerpts in the recital hall where we rehearsed the jazz group. (To be fair, most of the people gathered knew the factory rep pretty well.) After playing on my current horn, along with the same excerpts side by side with 4 of the prototypes, the consensus was one of the new models. For the hell of it, I told them to listen again and I turned the lights off in the hall, playing the excerpts again using a 1-5 numbering system. With the lights off, the "panel" unanimously chose the horn I'd been playing for 20 years. Hmmmm...