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Kanstul Bugles


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mrsemman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jeff for your response. Currently I am repairing a Conn G/F USN bugle, quite possibly from WWI. While it sounds better than most, it still does not compare to the Kanstul G.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
Dale Proctor wrote:
I have a Kanstul Bb field trumpet, ...

I know the difference.


Dale,

Are you arguing with your own post?


I will sometimes argue with myself when no one else will...

Actually, I was pointing out to a previous poster that I know the difference between a field trumpet and a bugle.
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garrett901 wrote:
Thanks... I already have a few. My Avatar shows me playing my Kanstul Custom Class, three valve, "G" Soprano Bugle.


Why is this instrument referred to as a bugle rather than as a G trumpet?
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veery715 wrote:
To bright, or not too bright, I always say.
In the running for irrelevantest post of the day.



there's actually a fifty buck reward for best zen koan of the day. find out who you have to see to collect... chuck
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No such thing as a Trumpet in the key of "G" Just Bugles. There was (is) a Bb Field Trumpet that "looks" just like a Bugle, but it's in the key of Bb, thus it's called a Field Trumpet. There are Ceremonial Bugles in the Key of Bb, but no Trumpets in the key of "G".

Key of Bb, C, D, Eb = Trumpets

Key of G (and F) = Bugle
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Scooter Pirtle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should definitely notify Schilke of their egregious error:

http://www.schilkemusic.com/products/trumpetscornets/gf-trumpets
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garrett901 wrote:

Key of Bb, C, D, Eb = Trumpets

Key of G (and F) = Bugle


Thanks, but you didn't answer my question. To re-phrase; what makes a three valve instrument in G a bugle rather than a trumpet?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garrett901 wrote:
No such thing as a Trumpet in the key of "G" Just Bugles. There was (is) a Bb Field Trumpet that "looks" just like a Bugle, but it's in the key of Bb, thus it's called a Field Trumpet. There are Ceremonial Bugles in the Key of Bb, but no Trumpets in the key of "G".

Key of Bb, C, D, Eb = Trumpets

Key of G (and F) = Bugle

Scooter Pirtle wrote:
You should definitely notify Schilke of their egregious error:

http://www.schilkemusic.com/products/trumpetscornets/gf-trumpets

The Schilke horns are in high F and G - as in higher than a Bb trumpet - while the bugles are in low G.

That said, prior to the Bb trumpet becoming the standard - most orchestral players used a low F trumpet. That's why many orchestral parts sections or parts written in F. I've never heard of a low G trumpet, however. I can't remember if trumpets came in low A or if it was just cornets.

So, trumpets come or came in the keys of (from low to high) F, Bb, C, D, Eb, E, F, G, A, Bb, and C.

Cornets come or came in A, Bb, C, and Eb.

I'll leave the difference between bugles and trumpets to someone who knows something about bugles, but I suspect it's a cylindrical vs. conical bore thing - with the bugles being significantly more conical. But, I don't really know much about bugles.
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Scooter Pirtle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, so the piccolo soprano bugle is in the same register as the Schilke G trumpet. So, it must not be a bugle?

Point is, there isn't a difference between a three valve G bugle and a trumpet, save its key. Technically, we've used signal trumpets in North America since the late 19th Century. Most manufacturers have simply advertised them as bugles. So, if Kanstul markets its instruments as a "bugle," then they are a bugle.

Vincent Bach was probably correct in utilizing the term "signal trumpet" for the instrument that he instructed while in the Army and later produced for the Old Guard.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Differences between field trunpets and bugles - top to bottom...

Kanstul Bb Field Trumpet

U.S. Regulation G Field Trumpet

British Army Bugle copy

Valved Bugle (flugelhorn)


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Scooter Pirtle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly! A picture worth a thousand words.

Thanks!
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I'll be very clear, here.

Scooter Pirtle wrote:
Hmmm, so the piccolo soprano bugle is in the same register as the Schilke G trumpet. So, it must not be a bugle?

Key is irrelevant whether an instrument is a trumpet or a bugle. Or a trumpet or cornet or flugel. It's just the key of the instrument.

Scooter Pirtle wrote:
Point is, there isn't a difference between a three valve G bugle and a trumpet, save its key.

By that reasoning there isn't a difference between a Bb trumpet, Bb cornet, Bb flugelhorn, or a horn in Bb, or a bugle in Bb. So - no.

I'd rather leave it to the Bugle experts - but a bugle is conical bore. Very conical bore. Just look at it.

Cornets are also conical bore, as are flugelhorns (even more so), and horns (as in "french" horns).

Trumpets are cylindrical bore - in theory. In practice, they also have conical elements nowadays - thanks to the classic French Besson trumpet but it's generally less conical than even the cornet. It's mostly cylindrical with conical elements.

So, that's the difference on a basic level. A trumpet is a trumpet. A cornet is a cornet. A bugle is a bugle. Key doesn't matter. Valves are a mechanism for more notes - that's all.
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Scooter Pirtle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn, I agree key is irrelevant. My comment was intended to counter a previous poster (who I respect) who was making blanket statements utilizing the key of the instrument as a sole indicator of whether or not the instrument was (or was not) a bugle. This, I believe, is incorrect.

I'm also aware of the conical verus cylindrical argument. Perhaps you can simply "look" at an instrument and make the distinction. However, when I look at a pattern 1892 field trumpet or a modern soprano "bugle," they appear to be rather cylindrical to me.

I'll gladly and respectfully refrain from posting in this thread since you feel I don't fulfill an undisclosed definition of expert (no argument from me on this point). Kindly notify those who do possess this qualification so that they can provide the information that would benefit this thread.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scooter Pirtle wrote:
I'll gladly and respectfully refrain from posting in this thread since you feel I don't fulfill an undisclosed definition of expert (no argument from me on this point).

I also don't fulfill the definition of bugle expert in any way shape or form. Sorry, I didn't realize your comments were written from a perspective designed provoke more discussion or point out fallacies.

Basically, we were making the same point, I see now.

Looking at your sig, I should have realized you know probably as much as I do.

I didn't intend my comments to be rude, only an attempt to inform. I apologize for any disrespect.

I agree that it's often difficult to see whether an instrument is conical or cylindrical. The British bugle in Dale's picture above does look a fairly conical to me, however. Basically, I simply remember from brass classes and textbooks in college that it's a conical instrument. That's all I got.
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll agree with everything stated and refer to my earlier point here:


Garrett901 Wrote:
Code:
Two reasons; First, tradition

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Jeff Garrett
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, Bugles have formal separate names based on there voice;

High horns = Piccolo Soprano bugle, Soprano bugle

Middle Horns = Mellophone bugle, French Horn bugle, Flugelhorn bugle

Low horns = Contrabass bugle (includes the "Grand" Contrabass bugle) Euphonium bugle, Baritone bugle

Once again, mostly tradition. You wouldn't address a section of Coronets in an English Brass Ensemble as Trumpets, nor should you address a sections of Soprano bugles in a Drum and Bugle Corps as as a Trumpet section. However it is permissible to address the Bb Trumpet section in a modern DCI Corps as a Trumpet section, since, they are Trumpets.

Didn't know there were key of "G" Piccolo Trumpets... That's pretty cool. Learn something new every day !


I try not to use absolutes. Looks like I did in this thread and for that I apologize. Not what I meant to do... Sorry Folks.
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Jeff Garrett
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garrett901 wrote:
...You wouldn't address a section of Coronets in an English Brass Ensemble as Trumpets,...

That's cornets. A Coronet is an old Dodge.
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes I hate spell check !
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Jeff Garrett
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NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original meaning of coronet is crown. You could play a cornet while wearing a coronet (perhaps while riding in a Coronet).
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MDNG Honor Guard Buglers who serve Maryland by sounding Taps at military funerals

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150321241383523&set=a.279575683522.176357.201787873522&type=1&theater
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