Why and when: Louis Armstrong's switch from cornet to trumpe

[derby_mute]

I just read, on another website concerning trumpets and cornets (as part of a discussion about Armstrong and his switch), why and when he switched. The answer was supplied by writer/historian Chris Albertson, who asked Louis the important question after a French writer attempted to answer the question without asking Pops.

It seems that when he was playing with Erskine Tate's Vendome Orchestra in Chicago ca. 1926, the leader asked him to switch, stating his Harry B. Jay Columbia model cornet was "too short." Armstrong recorded with Tate's orchestra on May 28, 1926. He was also recording with his Hot Five during this time. Some assert on cornet, rather than trumpet, but which instrument has never satisfactorily been determined. It is possible that he continued to use the Jay on some recordings, since it was supplied with a leadpipe that accepted a trumpet mouthpiece.

It seems that in Gary Giddins' book on Armstrong he mentions the switch during that time, but only possibly being at the suggestion of Tate.
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

[GordonH]

See page 76 of this article for an interesting discussion.

http://www.scottishmusicreview.org/index.php/SMR/article/viewFile/12/9

[derby_mute]

I've read that article. My problem with it is, the underlying premise is historically incorrect - that Armstrong somehow managed to sway everyone from cornet to trumpet in the 1920s and afterwards. Clearly, the trumpet was firmly in position as the predominant higher-brass instrument in dance bands and orchestras by at least 1924.

I'm concerned, with all of his research and references to classical players and repertoire, Mr. Wallace didn't do a little more research, like looking at photographs of dance orchestras from 1926 and prior. He would've realized that the switch from cornet to trumpet happened way before Armstrong began playing one with Erskine Tate's band. By 1926, the cornet was passe', and Armstrong's contemporaries were almost all trumpet rather than cornet players. (As an aside, it actually surprises me that Armstrong didn't switch to the trumpet when he was playing with Fletcher Hendson's band in 1924-1925, since his section mates were playing trumpet.) But Wallace's "twinkling of an eye" is a gross-misperception of Armstrong's influence. Granted, there were musicians who either saw Armstrong in performance or heard his records, but those were the days way before instantaneous media, when it took a l-o-n-g time for the general public to find out about an entertainment personality - sometimes years. And Armstrong was not exactly given a great deal of press coverage in the mostly white-oriented media of the time. What few newspaper articles that exist about Armstrong pre-1930s are in African-American newspapers like the Chicago Defender and the Indianapolis Freeman.

Wallace makes the assumption that musicians and the general public could tell the difference between Armstrong playing cornet on records, and Armstrong playing trumpet on records. Even to this day, no one can say for absolute certainty which records he played what instrument on. Wallace makes his case regarding which sides he used which instrument on, but not everyone would agree.

I've found that there are a lot of writers/researchers who don't use common sense thinking in writing about Armstrong's place in jazz, and for that matter, twentieth century music. The attitude is that, in the 1920s and 1930s, he was a huge entertainment personality - like he was in the 1950s until his death. This was not the case. Armstrong was not captured on a major film in America until 1935, with Pennies From Heaven. Unless people were lucky enough to see him in a theater or dance hall, the general public had little knowledge of who he was. In fact, from early 1931 to the spring of 1932, he was in Europe. His early records (the Hot Fives and Sevens), were not distributed in great quantities throughout the US, since they were released on Okeh's red label "Race" series. It really wasn't until he began working with a big band, playing popular songs, that his records had a larger US distribution. My father, who was a record collector and musician in Portland, Oregon beginning in the 1920s, didn't see an Okeh Red label Hot Five until the late 1930s, and didn't hear those particular sides until they were reissued on Vocalion in the mid-1930s. That said, however, he heard broadcasts of Louis with Les Hite's band in Los Angeles in 1930, and, by that time, had heard and owned the Okeh black label records that he had recorded. (He actually heard a radio broadcast that opened with Armstrong soloing on "Ding Dong Daddy from Dumas," and concluded, 15 minutes later, with Armstrong still soloing!)

In carefully reading over Wallace's article, one can easily find holes in his theories and research. In one section he writes "Armstrong’s imitators and successors, from Roy Eldridge (1911-89) through Dizzy Gillespie
(1917-93), Miles Davis (1926-91) to Wynton Marsalis..." Yet, none of these players are Armstrong imitators. Successors, yes, but none ever imitated Armstrong. He writes about the Great Depression as the time when trumpet players were allowed to play other types of music than jazz - when clearly there's ample evidence this was happening as far back as 1918. Wallace also refers to Armstrong as the "clown prince of jazz," which, again, is not only incorrect, it's downright derogatory and NOT how Louis was perceived by the public in the 1930s and 1940s. (As far as I recall, it was Paul Whiteman who was referred to as the "clown price of jazz."

One of the most distressing things to me is that when any academic writes something about jazz it is considered to be the last word, as though it's been handed down from some great font of research on high. But when it comes right down to it some of the best informed and researched writing on jazz has been done by people with little or no academic credentials - people who are jazz lovers and do the research because they love the music.
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

[Capt.Kirk]

Well a lot of guys where changing from cornet to trumpet. The "African American"Jazz and Ragtime groups I think had the most to do with this "opinion not fact" and this trickled into the more moderate "White" big band music since most musicians played both sides of the city!

I know I am going to get this wrong and my Grandfather is going to roll over in his grave but one of his favorite performer's was Bics Biederbeck(sp) I had to listen to this stuff a lot as a kid along with Dixie Land Jazz....A lot of his stuff was cornet based but even he started to record more and more stuff on trumpet. I have some of his albums from my Grandfather down in the basement and you can see and hear the shift from cornet to trumpet.

I have no clue why but I would assume that he felt compelled to keep up with the "Jones"!!! Why did everyone go over to distorted over driven amp sound on Electric Guitar for a long long long time???? IT was a trend.

I also think some of it was political as well. The British where always big on their Brass Bands and those where cornet,Euphonium heavy.....I think it was seen as the "Old World" sound and America just like she had to change how we spell and pronounce our words as compared to the parent language of British English to be different we needed a different sound too something modern something obnoxious something regal and brilliant and that meant shifting from cornet to trumpet and shifting. All opinion not at all something I am saying is factual just what I think drove the change!
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[PakWaan]

The story I heard was that when Satchmo accepted an offer from Fletcher Henderson to join his orchestra in Harlem in 1924, the cornet didn't blend with the rest of the horn section so he switched to trumpet.
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[derby_mute]

Kirk - it had nothing to do with African-American or white groups. It had to do with the fact that dance bands were playing in larger-sized venues - big dance halls with lots of people. And the brighter sound of the trumpet carried better - think of the length of trumpet bell section versus a cornet. Long, straight bell section, as compared to a shorter section of brass with a wider taper.

It's Bix Beiderbecke, BTW. Every trumpet or cornet player should be able to spell his name correctly (sorry - but that's the way I feel).

Not everyone has access to them, but the early 1920s copies of the Musical Truth (an appropriate name, in retrospect!) published by CG Conn, tell the story of how ubiquitous the trumpet was. Many, many photos of dance bands with trumpet, not cornet, players. Even by 1926 the magazine shows primarily bands with trumpets.
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

[derby_mute]

Pak - Louis started playing the trumpet in 1926 in Chicago. Not speculation, not guesswork, FACT. From Louis himself. So the story you heard was wrong.
Unfortunately, there's lots of "wrong" out there - especially, sad to say, on the internet, and in well-meaning books.

He was playing a Harry B. Jay Columbia model cornet with Fletcher Henderson. There's a picture of him with that horn WITH the band.
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

[Axelip]

I suppose Armstrong's continued use of the cornet, when others were already using trumpet, could just be due to New Orleans convention, or the perceived role of the cornet vs. trumpet.

IIRC (and I'm no scholar on the issue), outside more formal orchestral music, in say Sousa-type bands, trumpet was often treated as a section and fanfare instrument, while soloists played cornet. The New Orleans marching band tradition was part of early jazz, so maybe it was simply a matter of "I play solos, so I play cornet".

On one of the Hot Five tunes (Sevens?), "Big Butter & Egg Man", I think, there's a vocal featuring Lil Armstrong and Louis. Armstrong says he'll make plenty of money for Lil "so long as I can keep this cornet up to my mouth". Of course, that doesn't mean he was playing one on the track!!

[KateDaring52]

Great post! It's very nice. Thank you so much for your post.
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[GordonH]

John Wallace argues that the trumpet became more like the cornet when it got a longer, tapered leadpipe (i.e. when the leadpipe started going into the third valve.

I measured a trumpet and some cornets recently and there was not much difference in the proportions of conical to cylindrical:

http://www.ecalpemos.org/2011/08/what-is-difference-between-trumpet-and.html

[derby_mute]

Gordon - LA repair whiz Robb Stewart did an interesting survey on just that subject - http://www.robbstewart.com/Essays/TrumpetSchmumpet.html

Cheers,
Chris
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

[Capt.Kirk]

Nonesense on the Cornet's did not carry well in large halls......LOL That is almost funny since playing outside is fair harder to carry then playing indoors and cornets carried plenty well enough to play outside! You could not swing a dead cat with out hitting outdoors musicians a long time ago in the larger cities!

Not all Cornets are missing a front bell to leadpipe brace and that is the main factor in addressing projection difference between the common form of the trumpet we see today versus the most common wrap of cornet's we see today! When Cornet's ruled the roost their where far more varieties of wraps, bracing, bell profile then we now see today.

I can make and install a brace going from the leadpipe tot he bell further forward where it would be on a trumpet or extend a brace from the valve assembly forward on the bell and make any cornet project just like a trumpet. If you remove the front brace from a trumpet bell of move it radically rearward with out making the bell a lot heavier you lose projection on a trumpet as well!

If you do not think Black or African American Music drove the "American Sound" then Sir you do not know your history very well since "Jazz" is often sited as the only American Form of Music. Jazz int he classic sense was not usualy performed on Cornet it was usually a trumpet. I also do not think Orchestra's used Cornet's in mass considering Schilke,Bach,Holton and Benges main customer base where Philharmonic Orchestra Principals at first!

IF you have all the answer's then why as the question?? First I never put my idea's forward as fact because I was not their so they where put forward as probable reasons or driving factor's. Usually if you already know the answer and you ask the question any ways it is because you want to catch someone in a lie or you want to encourage conversation.

I find it comical really that today if you do not tell a non-trumpet player that you are not playing a trumpet and just ask them if they liked the sound they will almost always pick the cornet over the trumpet! Only brass player's poo-poo on the cornet!
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[GordonH]

Thankis for that link. I am going to link back from it.

[supportlivejazz]

[GordonH]

Orchestras in the UK had separate cornet sections until fairly recently. I think the Royal Opera House still does. The RSNO still has a principal cornet separate from the principal trumpet, although I assume he plays 3rd trumpet too:

http://www.rsno.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=459:brian-forshaw&catid=101&Itemid=82

[derby_mute]

Capt. Kirk

[GordonH]

Is it not the case that the early Louis Armstrong records like the Hot 5's and blues records like Bessie Smith were marketed as "race" records? I think they got into general circulation in Europe more quickly than they did in the US as a result. That could explain why the audience for that type of music developed so quickly in places like Paris.

[derby_mute]

Very true, Gordon. The Hot Fives and Sevens were released on the red label Okeh series, which was their "race records" label. These were shipped to stores in areas where there was a larger black population, and at that time, many parts of the country were mostly white, hence they didn't get those records (or any other race record series, like those from Paramount or Vocalion). So if you lived in Seattle, Portland, Boise, Missoula, Pierre, etc., you probably wouldn't see them. In Oakland and LA, yes.
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

[tptplayer]

[quote="Capt.Kirk"]

First I never put my idea's forward as fact



LOL

[Axelip]