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Andiroo
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Joined: 18 Feb 2006
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 Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:55 am Post subject: |
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"Raise your tongue to go higher" was told to me by lots of teachers and didn't work at all.
"Raise your tongue to go higher, however it needs to be much higher in your lower register than what you're currently doing" - To paraphrase John Dickinson.
Being concious of having the tongue too low in the lower register has really helped. It's easy to play low notes without correct tongue placement / support hence when I tried to play higher I was really just doing what I should have been doing for the lower notes...
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raw_brass_kicks
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Joined: 01 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: |
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John, lips can be relaxed and still provide compression. lips dont need to be pressed against the mouthpiece hardly at all, and even the slightest compression of lips against each other (without really squeezing either) can provide all the compression needed. The compression comes from the focused aperture, which can, if relaxed, adapt and react to the arch of the tongue. The less lip compression, the more tongue needed and visa versa. they all work together and if all of them function properly, hardly any compression from tongue or lips is needed for a higher range (AKA its easy!). Adam Rapa is a huge advocate for this kind of playing.
Im still working on finding the balance between too compressed and too open, too much tongue, not enough... but at least im on the right track. |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 1105
Location: Austin, by way of Germany and Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| raw_brass_kicks wrote: | | John, lips can be relaxed and still provide compression. . . and even the slightest compression of lips against each other (without really squeezing either) can provide all the compression needed. |
You mean I don't have to walk around the house endlessly with a pencil or P.E.T.E. pinched in my lips?
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J_Mase
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2010
Posts: 525
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| Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon Phelps wrote: | | John Mohan wrote: | | "Watch Your Tongue" as Claude used to stamp in all our flexibility books. Learn from it - your tongue will teach you more than you'll ever teach it. |
Heeeeeyyyy! What's happening? You know this happens to be my motto, too. It's my own personal life's vision. |
Greatest. Troll. Account. Ever.
Sir, never leave.
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Leon Phelps
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Heeeeeeeeeeyyyy! What's happening?!? I was just reading a telegram from Jimmy Walker and practicing on my House boat. Don't worry, ole Leon and his Olds Ambassador are in for the long haul, with all the right responses to your romantic queries.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5667
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| raw_brass_kicks wrote: | John, lips can be relaxed and still provide compression. lips dont need to be pressed against the mouthpiece hardly at all, and even the slightest compression of lips against each other (without really squeezing either) can provide all the compression needed. The compression comes from the focused aperture, which can, if relaxed, adapt and react to the arch of the tongue. The less lip compression, the more tongue needed and visa versa. they all work together and if all of them function properly, hardly any compression from tongue or lips is needed for a higher range (AKA its easy!). Adam Rapa is a huge advocate for this kind of playing.
Im still working on finding the balance between too compressed and too open, too much tongue, not enough... but at least im on the right track. |
Thanks for explaining all this to me. 
Bear in mind, most of what you wrote is factually incorrect. But not all of it...
Here's a hint: If you ever attend an Physiology course (or even a lower level Bio Course at University) you'll learn that relaxed muscles don't provide anytension (or in this case, any compression). Perhaps you meant to convey the idea that the lips don't need to be overly tense to provide the correct amount of compression. But if they are "relaxed", they are doing nothing. They need to do something.
And I have yet to find the player who can play in the upper register with good, full sound with their lips "pressed against the mouthpiece hardly at all". But hey, I've only been playing for 42 years…
You're right about it being a balance and how everything works together. But I've written that many times, so I'm not sure why you're explaining this to me. And as I've written before, the more one can shift that balance to air power and control of the air power with the up-and-forward arching tongue for the higher notes, and less lip tension and mouthpiece pressure, the greater the player's endurance and upper register will be. The muscles of the face and lips are very small and very delicate. The expiration muscles of the back, chest and abdomen are some of the largest and strongest in our bodies.
I'm curious, if you came up to me after seeing me play 1st trumpet on a major show (it's what I do), and you overheard me helping a kid your age with his playing, would you feel the need to enter in and "explain" how to play trumpet to me?
(We're assuming in the prior question that I didn't suck on the forementioned show). 
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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14 Year Claude Gordon Student
1st Trpt for "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera",
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zackh411
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 1021
Location: Saint Louis MO
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | raw_brass_kicks wrote: | John, lips can be relaxed and still provide compression. lips dont need to be pressed against the mouthpiece hardly at all, and even the slightest compression of lips against each other (without really squeezing either) can provide all the compression needed. The compression comes from the focused aperture, which can, if relaxed, adapt and react to the arch of the tongue. The less lip compression, the more tongue needed and visa versa. they all work together and if all of them function properly, hardly any compression from tongue or lips is needed for a higher range (AKA its easy!). Adam Rapa is a huge advocate for this kind of playing.
Im still working on finding the balance between too compressed and too open, too much tongue, not enough... but at least im on the right track. |
Thanks for explaining all this to me.
Bear in mind, most of what you wrote is factually incorrect. But not all of it...
Here's a hint: If you ever attend an Physiology course (or even a lower level Bio Course at University) you'll learn that relaxed muscles don't provide anytension (or in this case, any compression). Perhaps you meant to convey the idea that the lips don't need to be overly tense to provide the correct amount of compression. But if they are "relaxed", they are doing nothing. They need to do something.
And I have yet to find the player who can play in the upper register with good, full sound with their lips "pressed against the mouthpiece hardly at all". But hey, I've only been playing for 42 years…
You're right about it being a balance and how everything works together. But I've written that many times, so I'm not sure why you're explaining this to me. And as I've written before, the more one can shift that balance to air power and control of the air power with the up-and-forward arching tongue for the higher notes, and less lip tension and mouthpiece pressure, the greater the player's endurance and upper register will be. The muscles of the face and lips are very small and very delicate. The expiration muscles of the back, chest and abdomen are some of the largest and strongest in our bodies.
I'm curious, if you came up to me after seeing me play 1st trumpet on a major show (it's what I do), and you overheard me helping a kid your age with his playing, would you feel the need to enter in and "explain" how to play trumpet to me?
(We're assuming in the prior question that I didn't suck on the forementioned show).
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
I dunno John. At first glance, those qualifications seem impressive, but I think it would help if you used larger and more complex words. Instead of "Cats", try "Felines". I think that would really help your credibility.
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3572
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| raw_brass_kicks wrote: | John, lips can be relaxed and still provide compression. lips dont need to be pressed against the mouthpiece hardly at all, and even the slightest compression of lips against each other (without really squeezing either) can provide all the compression needed. The compression comes from the focused aperture, which can, if relaxed, adapt and react to the arch of the tongue. The less lip compression, the more tongue needed and visa versa. they all work together and if all of them function properly, hardly any compression from tongue or lips is needed for a higher range (AKA its easy!). Adam Rapa is a huge advocate for this kind of playing.
Im still working on finding the balance between too compressed and too open, too much tongue, not enough... but at least im on the right track. |
I'm not in a position to know but doesn't Adam Rapa use more of a TCE-sort of approach versus a Claude Gordon-type of approach? I know one guy who uses a variant of TCE who can play into the stratosphere with nearly slack lips. He can literally opening his lips at the corners and show his teeth while playing up to DHC. It's a substantially different approach with it's own pluses and minuses.
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5667
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: |
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By the way, I swiped a funny little emoticon from some website - one with a question mark. Now it's gone and replace by the dread box with a red X in my post. Dang it!
In reply to Zack:
Hey if I'm going to use words of greater complexity, let's skip "felines" and take it right to Felis catus.
In reply to Charles:
Adam Rapa very much uses the normal up-and-forward tongue arch. I've seen videos where he specifically describes hissing with his tongue for the upper register.
And concerning the playing of extremely high notes while the teeth are exposed through the sides of the mouth, if you search enough, you will find multiple posts by me on this Site where I write of Claude Gordon describing students he had that would play extremely high with their corners so relaxed that you could see their teeth. Is it possible you are confusing what I've written concerning CG students with something else?
When the tongue is properly arched, it channels all the air directly to the area of vibration. I've written many times about my "coffee stirrer" experiment here on the TH. If I take a non-collapsible coffee stirrer (like a small, very stiff straw) and place it through the corner of my mouth into the area of the side of my mouth, and then play a lower note, air will leak out of the stirrer because my tongue is down low and the air pressure is even throughout the inside of my mouth. But if I play up into the High C and above range, at some point my tongue arches enough that it seals off the sides of my mouth and no more air leaks out, even though I am supplying tremendous pressure with my expiratory muscles.
I can play up high and open up the sides of my lips so that you can see through them - but it is not the natural position of my lips for me when I play up high. But for some players, it is natural to have a little gap there.
THIS is the key to not just great upper register command, but to great endurance. When you don't have to use your face and lip muscles to clamp down your corners, you don't get tired as quick. That’s why I often write that though it is all a balance between air power, control of the air power with the tongue, lip and facial muscle strength and mouthpiece pressure it is best to shift the balance away from use of the lip and face muscles and mouthpiece pressure, and toward the use of the air power and control of that air power with the up-and-forward arching tongue.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
14 Year Claude Gordon Student
1st Trpt for "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera",
"West Side Story", "Evita", "Grease",
Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", etc.
Burbank Benge 6x
Copy of a Mt Vernon 3C |
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cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3572
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | ...Adam Rapa very much uses the normal up-and-forward tongue arch. I've seen videos where he specifically describes hissing with his tongue for the upper register.
And concerning the playing of extremely high notes while the teeth are exposed through the sides of the mouth, if you search enough, you will find multiple posts by me on this Site where I write of Claude Gordon describing students he had that would play extremely high with their corners so relaxed that you could see their teeth. Is it possible you are confusing what I've written concerning CG students with something else?
... |
John, I wasn't in any way trying to contradict anything you've said rather I was trying to reconcile in part what you were saying with what raw_brass_kicks was saying. From my perspective it isn't an either/or case. To that end my friend who studied with Jerome Callet also describes using a hiss in the extreme upper register. In many ways what he describes is very similar to what I learned from my teacher who's well schooled in the Claude Gordon's method. That said there's ultimately something that's very different about the outcome. In my experience CG and JC students sound and play quite differently. I believe that many of the fundamentals are the same for both schools but that the balance is found in a very different place.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Kanstul 920 Picc
Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/2C underpart |
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Leon Phelps
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Deleted by Moderators - Refrain from posts that have no relevance to the topic and merely waste readers' time.
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5667
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Leon got in trouble... Leon got in trouble...
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zackh411
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 1021
Location: Saint Louis MO
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | Leon got in trouble... Leon got in trouble...
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So I logged into the high range forum and saw a recent post by you John, and thought to myself "ooh, I should check that out, he always has something thoughtful and full of advice to say"...
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Stomvi VRII Lightweight in Silver
1946 Martin Committee #2 Bore
Bach Strad 183 Flugel
Stomvi Elite Piccolo
Bobby Shew Jazz Mouthpiece w/ 18 Drill (Legit)
Yamaha Miyashiro 1 w/ 18 Drill (Jazz)
Stomvi JMZVR w/ M4 Backbore Jim Manley Mouthpiece (Lead) |
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Leon Phelps
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | Leon got in trouble... Leon got in trouble...
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Heey! What's happenin'?!?!
I was just pointing out, through metaphor that people are entitled to their own opinions.
If ole Leon's post was wasting the readers time, might he suggest the Moderators delete the last few pages of this thread?
Also, John, how did you know what the tattoo I have looks like?
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&gid=2200275167
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5667
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| zackh411 wrote: | | So I logged into the high range forum and saw a recent post by you John, and thought to myself "ooh, I should check that out, he always has something thoughtful and full of advice to say"... |
Hey, out of 4,000+ posts you can't expect them to all be winners...
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5667
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon Phelps wrote: | | Also, John, how did you know what the tattoo I have looks like? |
Yo’ mama told me about it.
Yes, I know... I just dropped my "good post ratio" by about 1/4000th. |
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Mr. Benge
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Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 223
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Hey what about my whistling question, lol!! |
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HornofPlenty
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 231
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Hey Mr. Benge,
I can't whistle either, but the forward tongue arch seems to help me out as I go higher. I don't know if it is repositioning things to make it easier for me or if the tongue arch is the main reason, but that doesn't matter to me, it works for me!
Besides some books already mentioned, I like Lip Flexibilities by Charles Colin and David Hickman's book(15 Advanced Embouchure Studies):
http://www.hickmanmusiceditions.com/select2.asp?page=4&selection=36
Pops' books are great too.
Just thought I would throw in my two cents that you don't need to be able to whistle to get some mileage out of the tongue arch. IMHO |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5667
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Benge wrote: | | I've been wanting to ask this for a while, now is probably the time. It so happens I can't whistle to save my life. Like literally, I can maybe get out one note and barely change pitch and that's it, and it's not very pretty. Is my inability to whistle maybe tied to the fact that tongue arch, or at least the way I'm trying to apply it, doesn't seem to make any big changes for me?? |
I can't whistle very well either, especially when I blow outward to whistle. But I can whistle fairly well when I suck air in (no jokes please). Have you tried whistling while inhaling? (Again, no jokes, thank you).
If you can't whistle at all, you're just going to have to trust us - to change notes while whistling or playing a brass instrument, you have to arch your tongue up and forward for higher notes and flatten it down for lower notes.
And I don't think your inability to whistle would impede your brass playing or use of tongue arch. Whistling a note requires causing the airstream to vibrate and this requires very specific oral cavity shapes to cause it to happen. The vibration for a brass player is started by the vibrating lips. I don't think the oral cavity shape is as important in that case.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
14 Year Claude Gordon Student
1st Trpt for "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera",
"West Side Story", "Evita", "Grease",
Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", etc.
Burbank Benge 6x
Copy of a Mt Vernon 3C |
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Leon Phelps
Regular Member
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 55
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Hey! What's happenin'?!?!? Once again, good ole Leon ends up ahead of the curve. My tattoo, as posted above was put there to remind John to have his tongue forward and arched every time he saw me leaving his balcony. Oral cavity shape is always important...even when playing the trumpet. You always want to have the right flow whether its with your air OR the ladies!!
Another day at TrumpetHerald: Same old, same old Leon Phelps genius!!!!
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