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Best Vintage Cornets For The Money?


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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Connstellation 38A short model is a killer horn. Huge sound. Great for Dixieland.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that a true cornet sound was really gone by the time all of the cornets mentioned above were made....the true cornet sound belongs to instruments from about 1910 and before...there are a lot of cornets from those days available for relatively cheap . . . Yorks and Lyon and Healys and other makes. A look at Rich Ita's website would show a number of vintage cornets for $350 and under. Some might require heavy valve oil or a valve job...Shame on all of you for forgetting your musical heritage! But, how soon they forget...


I remember my musical (cornet) heritage every time I play my 1870 Lehnert or any one of the other mid 19th-early 20th century cornets I have free access to. With few exceptions, they play like crap, even when everything's working correctly and not leaking. Yes, some have a soft, muffled tone, but along with that, they have numerous out of tune notes that must be lipped, they don't respond well, and lack a good dynamic range. Surprisingly, others are rather bright sounding. Why would anyone want to attempt to play one on a real gig of any sort (other than a historical presentation, which I suffer through more than I'd like )?

Newer cornets that have a nice, rich cornet tone, respond well, play easily and in tune are the way to go. The old stuff may be fun to fool around with at home, and some are beautiful to look at, but anyone serious about performance and performing will leave the antiques at home.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:27 pm    Post subject: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

Dale,

Before you go trashing a whole half century of cornets, are your instruments well restored, do you have the right lead pipes and/or "bits" to play in tune and do you have period or period reproduction mouthpieces? I have an 1860's Cornopean and three cornets from the turn of the century and I am sure they have their intonation issues, like everything else, but I don't think they are so far off that I would only play them at home.

I remember a very exciting performance a couple of years ago by the Newberry Victorian Band with a cornet soloist on period instruments that was far from out of tune. If you can't play in tune with these instruments, why is it that H. Clarke could? Case of the workman blaming his tools??
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thedevilisbad
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
If you can't play in tune with these instruments, why is it that H. Clarke could? Case of the workman blaming his tools??


You were there???
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:38 pm    Post subject: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

I wasn't there . . . I use Clarke's Studies and I believe there are recordings . . . . maybe he was playing a Bach trumpet?

Are you saying that the old cornets couldn't be played in tune? Maybe the recordings are way off, clever forgeries?
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:53 pm    Post subject: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

C'mon folks . . . Arban wrote the method most still use. He died in 1889. Clarke added various studies and etudes that are artistic and part of the corpus of virtuoso studies for cornet and trumpet. Clarke was a recognized virtuoso and made recordings. He obviously played cornets of the times quite brilliantly and in tune. There are recordings of his solos and they are notated if you want to try to do as well. The record is there for those who want to investigate it . . .. I don't think Arban and Clarke played out of tune on instruments that couldn't be played in tune, but perhaps you-all know something I don't, so please enlighten me. I think one or more persons stepped in it, but I could be wrong. TH threads are famous for uncovering the truth, right? Don't confuse me with the facts! I'm going back to practicing! On my 1910 cornet . . . .Good Luck!
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plp
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an early 20th century Marceau cornet, no idea of the exact year produced, but very early from the design. Feather light, of very thin brass, that was apparently purchased and played very little, then stored for a very long time. It has the original mouthpiece, but I prefer a Conn Levy from the same period. The one time I got to hold a Boston cornet I was reminded of this Marceau, in that both are extremely light compared to my Conns.

It does have problem notes, but nothing that cannot be lipped and no worse than modern cornets. The reason it stays in the case is the tone. Very soft and thin, very few overtones.

The strong point with it is the flexibility and range. I am not a high note player by any means, but can play a 3 octave G scale no problem, where my regular range stops at high C. Tom Turner talks about his breakthrough when he learned to back off the pressure, didn't really understand it until I spent some time on this cornet with the cookie cutter mouthpieces. Arbans makes much more sense with it, some of the things that are a real bear on a trumpet or modern cornet just fall into place and I can get the feel of the tune much easier.

When new, this was not a top of the line instrument. This is probably why the tone is so lacking in depth compared with the top line Bostons, Tonks, and Yorks of that era. The extremely soft volume is the same, great for a parlor piece with a small audience but not suitable for today's playing demands. Of couse, mic it and all problems are solved.

I was lucky with it in that it came to me in pristine condition, no dents or evidence of repairs, and with the thin brass anything repaired would stand out immediately.
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tom turner
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good instruments, from any era in the past 120 years or so are (or were) good instruments.

The problem is, like a 90 year old car today, we don't really know just how used (or used up) that horn is when we get it . . . or how many times it was repaired, etc.

However, a pristine specimen that was/is always well cared for can be stunning.

I had the incredible pleasure a couple of years ago to have a local guy bring me a stunning Boston 3-Star . . . from about 1905 to look at. It was owned by his great uncle . . . who was a working pro back in the day and it was surely the old guy's LAST Boston cornet.

In other words . . . it was held with a cotton cloth, it contained several GOLD PLATED Boston custom mouthpieces (which looked brand new too) . . . the horn looked like it just left the factory and the silver and gold horn was absolutely brand new looking. Heck, even the case looked brand new. I've never seen a brand new/100 year old horn look that perfect before. Heck, it even still had the original little round tin which contained slide grease (and has a spot in the Boston cases for the tin) . . . and the tin looked new too!!!

As I held it, the precision feel felt just like a brand new pro horn too. I'd just finished playing a gig at the church he attended and I'd even used one of my Boston 3-Stars on one piece during the performance. Now my two are NICE and they play like a dream . . . but THAT Boston . . . wow.

He told me he'd put it on ebay once just to see what it was worth with a "ridiculously" high reserve on it . . . and the horn got up to about $3500 or so before the bidding ended. That specimen was worth it too . . . and far more. Nawww, I didn't ask him what his reserve was either but it was surely high enough that he wouldn't lose that family heirloom.

T.

PS: My pair of Rich Ita-restored Boston 3-Stars are only 258 numbers apart in their serial numbers . . . from the 1911-1913 era (depending on which dating chart one uses). And yes, they DO play well enough to use on performances. I've played my main one on plenty of gigs, though today it has been mainly retired in preference for my 2002-era Flip Oakes Wild Thing short cornet.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, all I can say is the 19th and early 20th century cornets I've had experience with are significantly worse than modern instruments, and I've played a bunch of 'em. Sure, most can be played in tune by lipping, and I think I do a rather good job of it, having played one professionally for about 15 years now. Yes, a period mouthpiece (or copy) helps the intonation a bit, and that's what I use. The very best ones (and there are a FEW) require the least compensation, and it goes downhill from there, to the almost unplayable ones. Once you learn the tendencies of the instrument and the group you're playing with, you compensate by alternate fingerings and/or lipping to play in tune. It's a lot of work (much more than on a good vintage or modern cornet), and the tone suffers on the more severely lipped notes. I'm sure the great cornet players from the past had to do the same thing and I'm sure they did it better than I do...

Speaking of tone, the tone is rather thin and/or dull on most of these horns, too. While it's sometimes a gentle, pretty tone and is historically different from anything you hear today, it's not something you want to throw into a concert band, brass band, or other modern ensemble. It would be lost when played by the average player (but I'm sure Clarke would have been heard). I'm assuming the OP was looking for the "best vintage cornet for the money" to play somewhere like that, or possibly in church or even in a quintet. Other than for a period music group, why would anyone want a cornet that's a lot of work to play in tune and doesn't project well? You'll wear yourself out playing one close to in tune, and your band mates won't appreciate your playing a sub-par instrument while they're trying to make beautiful music on better quality instruments.

BTW, I don't believe backing off on the pressure on a cookie cutter is what Clarke and others did when they played up high. I've also listened to recordings of some of those virtuosos, and they are nailing the high notes with great power and authority. As for Arban, he stated in his method that the notes approaching high C should be made use of sparingly. Why? I'd guess the hardware wasn't generally up to the task in the day. Unless you're a virtuoso player who can fairly easily overcome hardware deficiencies, stick to a more modern cornet with a deep, "traditional" mouthpiece - they are much easier to perform well on, and will still have a beautiful cornet sound. Hope I'm not stepping on too many toes, but that's the way I see it.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could well be that the best instruments of the period were played until they would wear out, become dented, get repaired a few times, handed to beginner students, repaired again and gradually fall into misuse - ending as wallhangers or sources of spare parts.
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Gilligan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree that if you are playing professionally you should be using the best horn available. Most often that is a modern custom hand made horn from any of the modern premier makers.

Yet, there are exceptions to this. For example. In the world of tubas most conductors seek the tonal qualities of the old 1900 - 1920 York and Sons six quarter tuba. Brass instrument makers having been trying to duplicate the craftsmanship, and metallurgy of those old horns for nearly a hundred years without true success. Most Reciently Kanstul Music has been involved in an actual metal analysis to try to duplicate their old formula.

I personally love the feel of the old horns from the 1920’s. There is something about the brass that is different and the artistic craftsmanship from that era is no longer duplicated except in very rare cases, falling to the demands of reducing the labor costs of production. Maybe it is an older brass formula or the years of tempering the brass gets from soaking up all those vibrations. I’ve played modern models of Benge, Yamaha, Conn, Bach, and the like ( maybe its different with the $2,500 plus horns but my budget is limited) but I find I always return to the older horns due to the way I can feel the vibrations through the old brass. And, I have found this to be very consistent through many of the old makers such as my 1929 Holton model 45 Revelation, (That model 45 from the late 1920's has a .459 bore, and reversed round tuning slide) my 1919 old King Liberty, and then my 1928 Conn New York Symphony. I’ve even noticed this feel in an old 1900 Conn Double Bell Euphonium I had a chance to play this Forth of July and my old 1930 King CC tuba.
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improver
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an older couesnon cornet with trombone waterkeys plays great and the core and sound are beautiful.
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joe7red
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Holton Super Collegiate is an outstanding and affordable cornet. I have one in raw brass that looks and plays beautifully. They have a solid nickel bell and some years have a copper bell flair. I saw an excellent looking one with copper go for just over $100 on ebay. I've found my Super to be a big step up from these other reasonably priced cornets I've owned: King Cleveland Superior, Buescher Aristocrat [pro model] and a late 50s Ambassador.
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DickGraysn
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
Salvation army cornets can also be a very good buy. The Salvation Army had their own instrument factory in England and made very good instruments.


Hello Everyone,
I am new here and looking for information. My Daughter went to a Grand Openinig of a new consignment shop and on the wall as a decoration was a trumpet. Not sure if they knew what they really had because they told my daughter it would not work (because the felts were worn and discolored). She bought it for 24 dollars and brought it home to me. I checked the valves, they felt like someone had used slide grease on them but they moved, so I took them out to clean them and they were still shiny and smooth. All the slides pulled out and to my suprise were still shiny and smooth. Ran the whole horn thru a Warm soapy bath, reolied the valves and re greased the slides. I polished it up to find that the silver plating is in great condition, no pitting, no wear. This thing plays close to my Holton ST-200. (I have not played a lot of horns so I can not give a better compairison). Now here is the kicker. It is a Salvaltionist Publishing and Supply The Triumphonic Class A S/N 30182 M. The best I can figure is that it was made from early to mid 60's. There is a problem with the bell as it appears that it was dropped or fell off the wall because the bell is bent, the flair is flattened out and the support is detached. Everything else looks new.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:45 am    Post subject: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

Well, your daughter lucked up on one of the many good deals on cornets available to those who look, thanks to the high schoolers' preoccupation with silver trumpets.

The SA were considered good instruments and this is their top of the line model, I think. It will probably play fine as is, but about $50 to $75 dollars will probably get the bell de-dented and the brace resoldered and you will have a playing professional cornet for under $100. I think that fulfills the title of the thread and is about the "best vintage cornet for the money." The only other concern would be the condition of the valves, which might be leaky enough to require a $300 valve rebuild, but it is possible that just using heavy valve oil will make them playable. That is the big fly in the ointment with vintage cornets --- most of them are now so old that the valves are likely to need rebuilding, so if you pay $200 for a really nice looking, engraved example from the early 1900's, you need to spend $300 - $400 to redo it and then you have something that really isn't worth that ($500) on the open market.

Another issue would be whether this horn has any intonation issues, but it's quite possible that it plays very well, as you say. IDK how to date one of these, but it wouldn't have to be 100 years old, as these were made up until the SA factory closed, and I'm thinking that was in the '70's, but maybe someone else here knows the exact date. I can't pull it up right now.
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it's hard to go wrong with a good used Wild Thing short model, I guess that's out of the price range being sought. I have a number of favorites, all of which sound like good cornets should (admittedly I spend some time with each finding the right mouthpiece). In no particular order:

Boston 3-Star "Ne Plus Ultra" (restored)
Courtois 104 "Bandmaster" (possibly 30 years old and very similar to the last Courtois cornets made)
Besson Chicago Bore
Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (round stamp)
Kessels Sirena
Olds Super, Recording, and Super Recording
Buescher ca. 1911 or so
Conn 12A
Butler
Boosey - Distin
Gerhard Baier (B&S) - modern short model, plentiful and inexpensive
A. Hall Gisborne
Jenkins / Aug. Heinem (HP/LP, A, Bb, and C)
Olds Military Model (and a real military Olds, ca. WWII, looks like a Special and plays nicely as well)
Holton Stratodyne
Selmer K-modified (although I'm still looking for a decent buy on one of the French-made short model Selmers)
Grenadier (sold to me as having been made by Frank, but I don't know whether to believe that or not)
Reynolds Emperor
Reynolds unknown model (identical to Olds A6ST)

And those are just my favorites. I still go every chance I have to hear Dixieland played exceedingly well on a "The Olds" cornet, a Benge, a Getzen - come on, most of them are good enough, and can be excellent when in the proper condition and paired with the right mouthpiece and player. I still whip out the old Ambassador from time to time. And I've got a Czech-made "Concertone" S-wrap cheapie, probably from the 1930's, that has possibly the warmest, sweetest tone of any of them.
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:

I remember my musical (cornet) heritage every time I play my 1870 Lehnert or any one of the other mid 19th-early 20th century cornets I have free access to. With few exceptions, they play like crap, even when everything's working correctly and not leaking. Yes, some have a soft, muffled tone, but along with that, they have numerous out of tune notes that must be lipped, they don't respond well, and lack a good dynamic range. Surprisingly, others are rather bright sounding. Why would anyone want to attempt to play one on a real gig of any sort (other than a historical presentation, which I suffer through more than I'd like )?


Wow. This certainly isn't true of my 1891 Boston 3 Star.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
Wow. This certainly isn't true of my 1891 Boston 3 Star.

The Boston 3-Star seems to be one of the few exceptions to the rule. Even then, they aren't quite up to the overall playing standards of a really good modern cornet.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:30 pm    Post subject: Best vintage cornets for the money? Reply with quote

Hello Dale and All,

You wrote:

Quote:
I remember my musical (cornet) heritage every time I play my 1870 Lehnert or any one of the other mid 19th-early 20th century cornets I have free access to. With few exceptions, they play like crap, even when everything's working correctly and not leaking. Yes, some have a soft, muffled tone, but along with that, they have numerous out of tune notes that must be lipped, they don't respond well, and lack a good dynamic range. Surprisingly, others are rather bright sounding. Why would anyone want to attempt to play one on a real gig of any sort (other than a historical presentation, which I suffer through more than I'd like )?


but then you also wrote:

Quote:
BTW, I don't believe backing off on the pressure on a cookie cutter is what Clarke and others did when they played up high. I've also listened to recordings of some of those virtuosos, and they are nailing the high notes with great power and authority.


You've stated several times before that most of these old cornets have big deficiencies. Once you stated this when I was discussing re-doing my York Professional I wrote and asked Rich Ita whether it would be a good idea to re-do it or would I be disappointed? Rich has redone a number of these and wrote that he thought I'd be well satisfied. I remember spending an hour or two picking out an old cornet at Rich's and I played five or ten of them. They all played differently, but I thought some played well enough.

Several years ago I attended a performance of the Newberry Victorian Band and heard Lisa Koehler play a virtuoso solo on a Seefeldt cornet of about 1891. It sounded great. So, as far as I can tell, the Bostons Three Stars, the Yorks and the Seefeldts can play quite well. I'll not dispute that there were instruments that didn't. I can't really tell whether the Weymann and Sons cornet I have that has appeared with the C Bruno label and the Pierre Sartin label, too, is much of a player. But some of the others are decent to excellent players.

If the cornet virtuosi of the old days could play the things they did and come out with high notes of "great power and authority," how could their horns play so badly? I know from listening to modern players try to play runs on a natural trumpet with "no holes" that you just can't adjust the intonation of rapid scales on the fly. Yet Clark and some of the others sound right in tune in their runs as well as their sustained notes.

I'm not trying to start an immense wrangle, but I would suggest that my experience is somewhat different from yours. Even my 1860's cornopean can be played fairly well in tune and it has 150 year old Stolzel valves and evidently was a stencil horn when new. I think at least some of the Pertinet valve cornets of the 1890's and beyond had evolved to the point of being in tune when they were well made.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we all know, great players can make about any instrument sound good. I'll even agree that a good player can play an inferior horn well, too. Nice tone, in tune, a pleasure to listen to, but...he's working really hard to do it. I prefer to make my job as easy as possible, and more modern instruments do that for me. For those who have great-playing antique instruments and enjoy playing them, more power to you. I just don't want cornet neophytes to get the idea that they can pick up one of those cheap cool-looking circa 1900 cornets on eBay and have something they can enjoy playing in a concert band or whatever. The playing characteristics (intonation tendencies, projection, etc.) will be too far out of synch with the other instruments to be fun to play.
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