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perspective Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2006 Posts: 189 Location: Southampton. England
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: What is a good tone ? |
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First, I must say, you will need to be quite old to understand what I am saying. I have recently been moved out of the front row of a brass band because my tone was not right. I would agree with that, but only in the context of what constitutes, it would seem, a good tone today.
I listen to the cornet players in the front row, and to me , they sound more like orchestral trumpets. They are undoubtedly expert at what they do, but they sound nothing like the tone created by the hero of my youth, a principal cornet player who won first soloist's prize in practially every contest my band ever entered.
Can somebody tell me why this is so ? Is it the instruments that have changed or is it embouchure, that is, the instruction ? I don't know - I just can't figure it out. All I know for sure is that today's " good tone " is different than it used to be. The "sweetness" of the cornet, as against the trumpet, seems to have disappeared. |
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robertgrier Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Would have to hear you play to tell. But fundamentally a good tone is universal. It has a good core/center to the sound with good resonance. Style is subjective as is vibrato. Is your sound too bright or dark for the ensemble. You need to ask the director for some specific answers. Like " what can I do to improve my tone". is it too bright/dark/airy/ tight/ brittle? _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com
bgrierjr@triad.rr.com |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8936 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW I find tone to be a somewhat elusive and confusing thing. I know what I like but what I perceive from others and myself is not always what others hear. And working with a world-class teacher I've found that my sound concept has evolved. Without that instruction I dare say that my sound would not be as "successful" as it is. I also have it on good authority that many world-class players perodically seekout others to help them keep their sound concept on track.
I guess my point would be that regardless of your age and level of success you might consider seeking out some top players in your region and see if they can pinpoint what it is your bandmates believe is holding you back. It could be equipment but as often as not it is only a minor tweak to your approach.
Best of luck. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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John Mock Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Aug 2009 Posts: 336 Location: near Harrisburg, PA
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Please note: I am not a cornet player, and I live in the U.S., and play trumpet mostly as an unpaid church volunteer musician, with the occasional paying gig.
However, I respectfully offer the following observations (as an engineer and again not a full time musician): Yes, I think the "concept" of what constitutes a "good"--or rather perhaps more accurately the most "preferred" tone today seems to have changed--whether it is trumpet or cornet.
For example, years ago in America, it seems to have been customary to use a thicker, heavier, perhaps some might say "sweeter" vibrato than what is typically heard today--at least many recording artists at the time did.
For me it's almost generational. I'm 43--and my "ultimate" concept of what is the best trumpet sound, even when in my 20's, differed markedly from the musicians I played with who were older than me at that time. They seemed to prefer Rafael Mendez, and Doc--and others like them--and still do. Also, my personal concept of the "best" trumpet sound has changed in just the last 20 years. At that time, it was Wynton Marsalis, and his amazing control of the instrument, especially in classical settings. Today I prefer the three guys' names listed at the bottom of my signature, who are known mainly as jazz or commercial players. To my ear, they sound differently all the time from the guys who came before them.
Also--if you hear Wayne Bergeron or Roger Ingram talk about trumpet and trumpet players in person--they specifically pay homage to the guys who came before them--even regarding the sound they prefer (Doc gets mentioned a lot but isn't the only one they talk about). Yet to me, these cats still sound "different" from their personal trumpet heros of generations past. I enjoy hearing Doc and gladly pay to do so live, yet I attempt in my feeble way to emulate the sound of Wayne or Bobby the most.
And oh, btw, what constitutes "good" singing in most people's minds seems to have changed too, so we horn players are not alone. At least in American popular music, terrible breathing technique is now perfectly ok, as well as singing out of tune (though I'd never agree with that). I cringe every time the judges on our TV shows tell somebody they were fantastic when their pitch was in fact terrible through the entire song, and detracted from whatever else they did--yet even our judges and many of our music "fans" have so little musical schooling they fail to hear what is truly in tune or not.
My 2c editorial--
John _________________ Kanstul 1500 trumpet
Kanstul 800-2
GR WB Classic and Studio M mouthpieces
Last edited by John Mock on Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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tollaus Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 280
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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That is a very interesting post!
Probably what has changed, is the "conception" of the sound over the years. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8936 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that "tone" is sometime a catch-all that's used even what players are referring to is really style or other approach related facets. I find the notion of "sound concept" to be a better general term. And I fully respect that the general expectation of both trumpets and cornets has certianly evolved. I've played with many elder statesmen who had strong definitive styles that ran counter to what the groups and other player wanted. I repeat that the best chance of excelling in any given genre is to seek input from players expert enough to understand the subtlties. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Adam V Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2008 Posts: 1765 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Clear and focused, with a dense core and many overtones. _________________ 1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel
Marcinkiewicz E3/3C |
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Scott42486 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 529 Location: San Antonio, Texas
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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A good tone is like a good spouse, you'll know when you've found it.
On a more serious note though, a good tone is found by making sure each note resonates. Be it dark or bright, it'll still "ring", "resound", "resonate" well. Close your eyes and play long tones, you'll find it. When I was teaching I'd tell me students to play a concert Bb repeatedly with their eyes closed until the note actually locked it. I actually had one or two students that banged their heads against the wall when it finally hit them.
Hopefully this gets you close to the answer you seek. (and the tone you desire) _________________ Bach/Kanstul Frankenhorn
Warburton Mouthpieces |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2358 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think many of us are out of our element here. This is a very specific question, and has to do with sound concept in contemporary brass bands in England. All I can offer is that, from what the OP has stated, apparently the preferred sound concept has changed since your youth. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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John Mock Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Aug 2009 Posts: 336 Location: near Harrisburg, PA
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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I agree--we are out of our element.
However, I do believe the sound concept has changed--whether across the pond or here. Just listen to the artists of today versus the 70's/80's versus the generations before--it can't be all related to just the improvements in recording technology. Each succeeding generation also has to find their own "voice", just as in music theory--they must rebel somewhat against what came before--break the rules and then reconstruct them.
There have been some fine suggestions regarding what might by tried to better blend in--and I should take some of them to heart myself.
John _________________ Kanstul 1500 trumpet
Kanstul 800-2
GR WB Classic and Studio M mouthpieces |
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stanton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 726 Location: Skokie, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Obviously your conductor has a specific sound in mind. If you are happy with your sound you have a decision to make: Stay with your current sound, understanding the situation, or seek to modify your sound concept.
If you elect to modify your sound, you may want to get with a really good teacher or play duets with the guy in your front row whom you most admire.
Other than that I can't offer any more.
Good luck,
Stanton _________________ Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece |
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robertgrier Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Stanton, Excellent suggestions. When you play with an ensemble it's all about blending in the section. _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com
bgrierjr@triad.rr.com |
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richardwy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: Re: What is a good tone ? |
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perspective wrote: | I have recently been moved out of the front row of a brass band because my tone was not right. I would agree with that |
I try to give the guy with the stick what he wants.
I know what you're talking about. Put a 3C in my cornet, PRESTO! She's a trumpet.
Still, the guy with the stick wins.
I sympathize though. Do you fancy finding another band with which to play? _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial |
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wvtrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 3131 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Lot of variables here. How old are you? Tone has changed throughout the years. Many cornet players today use trumpet mouthpieces with a cornet shank. The older cornet players played with very funnel shaped mouthpieces. Check out the Curry Vintage line. Equipment size is different today as well. I use to discuss this often with one of my teachers. The turn of the century equipment is a lot smaller than what is expected today. Herseth here in the US really redefined tonal concepts for American Orchestras.
To me the perfect tone is Wynton. That being said you have to use your tonal concept that is in your ear and strive to make that sound come out of the bell. Phil Smith refers to this as his inner Gabriel... _________________ Freelance Performer/Teacher WV, PA, MD, and OH http://www.neil-king.com
Yamaha NY Bb, Adams F1 Flugelhorn, Schilke P5-4, Stomvi Eb/D Elite, Bach C 229 bell 25A, York Monarch cornet. |
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nordlandstrompet Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2008 Posts: 266 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I guess that your hero could be mr McCann?
He was the sound most cornetplayers tried to sound like when I was young(er).
The later years, the music played by brass bands has changed, especially
here in Norway, and the sound consept has also changed to a "lighter" sound
with less vibrato, as you have mentioned, into a more orchestral sound.
It is like it has changed from "flugel-ish" to be closer to "trumpet-ish",
but still sounds like a cornet. (Bad sentence building.... sorry about that).
FWIW, the chamber tone has also changed from A440 to A442-443... _________________ Nordlands
http://www.brassnor.no
CarolBrass Scandinavia
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Taylor
Chicago Custom X-VR
Chicago Gen III
CarolBrass
CTR-5200V-(D)-L
CCT-9392-GLS(D)
CCR-9990-RSM-SLB
CPT-3000-GLS
CPT-1000 mini |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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Some really good responses here and nothing that seems to be "wrong," "bad advice," or really missing the point. Still, I thought I would add a personal view about concept changes.
I grew up in a musical household and have been actively listening to most types of music since the early 1950's -- starting with everything from my father's 78 rpm Dorsey and Miller recordings to Texico's live broadcasts of the Met operas. Although I tend to fall asleep during Mozart symphonies, I still go to operas (John Adams, these days) and live jazz.
Let's say you play trumpet based on the sound and feel of old Delta blues -- accoustic guitar and scratchy male voice. Then you hear Hendrix. All that edge, all that tension, all that variety of sound and effect. Then, you want some of that new energy in your own playing.
I think that nearly all music has moved "in the Hendrix direction." That is, music has added stridency, volume, percusive effect and disonant tonality to the mix. Even something as traditional as British Brass Band has players that hear all of the new things that have been added to the sound and has audiences that accept and expect that those new things are a part of music.
So, the sound concept of all musicians and music listeners subtly shifts.
Then, of course, the shift becomes self-reinforcing. If cornet players are now looking for a little edge in the sound, the cornet mouthpiece model that aids and abets that edge becomes popular and when everybody else in the section has that mouthpiece, the old traditionalist doesn't blend.
I like the new stuff but I like the old stuff too. So I play a WT with a fairly small mouthpiece with the concert bands but my favorite gig is a coffee shop on a copper belled flugel (1525) and giant mouthpiece (Oakes extreme 0) and I play that gig solo so I don't have to blend with anybody.
Adapt, evolve or go extinct.
(For various reasons, I'm feelling a bit old and cranky today. In fact, I am a bit old and cranky. If this post doesn't scan for you, ignore it. Part of being old and cranky is being pretty thick skinned and mostly impervious to criticism.)
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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Ed Lee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 2156 Location: Jackson NC 27845
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Tommy, ... or play by yourself simply for your own enjoyment. Works for me! |
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tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Ed Lee wrote: | Tommy, ... or play by yourself simply for your own enjoyment. Works for me! |
I have a need for an audience. (Why else would I post all this garbage that I do post on TH?)
Back about '59, Louie told me and another high school age trumpet player that being an entertainer was the only thing that was important. He said that monkeys make tools but only humans intentionally entertain other humans. That's been my guide ever since; I don't play for myself -- I play for my audience. I practice so I can do a better of job of giving my audience what it needs. I'm proud to be good enough to carry on Louie's tradition, in a little, small manner, in out-of-the-way places, for humans who may not otherwise really matter very much.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
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Michael Hawes Regular Member
Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Posts: 17 Location: Northwestern University
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:53 am Post subject: |
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-- _________________ Life is Good!
Last edited by Michael Hawes on Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:00 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1893 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I can't speak for anyone else, but ... if you want to hear what I consider a great sound and tone on the trumpet, check out Randy Sandke. His CD Calling all cats" just destroys me. The playing is imaginative, creative, flowing, melodic, and the sound he gets is wonderful.
And no, he didn't pay me to say that. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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