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Once again sticking valves.


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Bandit John
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:40 am    Post subject: Once again sticking valves. Reply with quote

Hi out there. I've played trombone most my life but recently started playing cornet in a brass band and bought a yamaha student model YCR S3 and have no probs with it so far. I also have started going to a big band rehersal, so went out and bought a John Packer 251sw trumpet. I've taken it back once and they exchanged it because the valves were sticking.
I've read alot of the discussions on the matter about dirt, oil, brushing your teeth before playing etc. lol. I thought I'd take it back and go for the more expensive Yamaha but also read about sticking valves with those also. As I'm not experienced with valves, I was wondering if its a common problem. I don't believe it to be dirt as I have thoroughly washed it out and oiled the valves. Also it does'nt happen all the time and seems to happen when I'm slurring scales as if theres some sort of trapped air causing a slight cushioning of the valve. If I press the first valve then release slowly, it comes back up ok but if I press first and second then release first, it sticks momentarily halfway up then comes up. This happens in diff note transfers but not as noticable when playing fast. Should I take it back or persevere until it's blown in or what. Is this what you get buying a cheaper instrument. I would expect the tone etc. not to be as good as dearer ones but the valves should still work from new. Cheers for any help on this matter.
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too had this problem with the #2 valve only. The problem went away when I swapped valve spring #2 and #3. I hardly ever use 3rd valve so I don"t really notice any problem now.

If the Horn is clean, Check the spring !

Oh, and make sure your slide grease isn't getting on your valve too. That also will cause intermittent sticking.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What kinda valve oil do you use? Changing brand or type can also solf the problem.
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trumpaholic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be that your not striking straight down on the valve resulting is side pressure which will cause problems. I highly recommend Tech-Oil if the tollerances are not really tight.
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I purchased a brand new Carol pocket trumpet a few years ago and the valves were sticking. Here is what I did to fix the problem, although the Carol rep told me I had voided my warranty. I took each valve piston and under running warm water gently brushed the piston with a Scotch brite pad. The operative words are "gently brushed." I then cut a small strip of the pad and inserted it into the valve casing and gave it a twist. I note that the strip was small enough to not require it to be doubled over. I washed well, dried, oiled and the problem was solved. The rep sorta freaked out and informed me that my warranty was now cancelled. I am not sure how he was authorized to make that statement, nor how he had determined that I had abused my valves. The pad only gently contacted the valve and piston surfaces. Anyway, this solved the problem and there is no leakage.
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you now playing in a colder room?

I found that with one horn, picking it up and putting it down a lot led to my 3rd piston sticking on the upstroke.

The odd thing was that a slightly THICKER oil helped. As recommeded by Tim of Osmun Music, the Hetman's Classic prevented that cold-condition sticky/hesitant upstroke.

Also, brush the very short connecting tubes between your valves 1 & 2 , and 2 & 3 to remove any crud.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good suggestions here, mine would only confirm that all dirt should be scrubbed out with a non-abrasive soap and water solution, and then try another valve oil.
BerpbioOil is my current favorite for looser valves. If the horn was inexpensive to begin with, the valve tolerances are probably looser.
Oil your valves every day that you play the horn, it's something that is often forgotten.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Good suggestions here, mine would only confirm that all dirt should be scrubbed out with a non-abrasive soap and water solution, and then try another valve oil.
BerpbioOil is my current favorite for looser valves. If the horn was inexpensive to begin with, the valve tolerances are probably looser.
Oil your valves every day that you play the horn, it's something that is often forgotten.

I took my one owner 72 strad to YourBrass to see what we could do about a sticking first valve. He offered to do a mild lapping, but also suggested Berpbio oil due to the age of the horn. We decided to try the oil first and I am happy to say the valves are now working fine, not a single stick.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like the 2nd tune slide/crook may have gotten bumped,pressed so it is slightly pushing in on cylinder..., this would account for the 1st valve being affected by the 2nd. Have a tech check it out, I also like "valve magic" for minor drag situations....
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John Mock
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KingSilverSonic wrote:
I purchased a brand new Carol pocket trumpet a few years ago and the valves were sticking. Here is what I did to fix the problem, although the Carol rep told me I had voided my warranty. I took each valve piston and under running warm water gently brushed the piston with a Scotch brite pad. The operative words are "gently brushed." I then cut a small strip of the pad and inserted it into the valve casing and gave it a twist. I note that the strip was small enough to not require it to be doubled over. I washed well, dried, oiled and the problem was solved. The rep sorta freaked out and informed me that my warranty was now cancelled. I am not sure how he was authorized to make that statement, nor how he had determined that I had abused my valves. The pad only gently contacted the valve and piston surfaces. Anyway, this solved the problem and there is no leakage.


There is no such thing as "gently brushing" with Scotch Bright. In the world of model trains we use Scotch bright to clean tarnished track, because it removes the tarnish, oil, dirt--and a little bit of metal--quite quickly. It would have been much better to try a very lightweight synthetic oil before doing such an extreme treatment--and it would also have been better to have the valves professionally lapped rather than doing what you did.

Even the fine quality Japanese-made model train track now comes with warnings not to use Scotch Bright on it--as the permanent scratches in the nickel-silver finish allow crud and oxidation to deposit. Now, do you really want that in a trumpet valve casing if we don't even do it for model trains?

Carol valves are stainless steel--designed for long life--and require more careful break-in than Monel valves, as others on these forums have attested. They can sometimes be a little sticky for the first year, but then evidently work outstandingly well when/if properly broken in.

I like Hetman's lightest weight oil for new trumpets. I've had no issues at all with both a new UMI Benge and a new Kanstul 800 while using Hetman's.

Respectfully submitted--

John
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, I say again, I gently brushed the pistons. There were no visible scratches, there are no leaks, and the valves have not been sticking since.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toothpaste is more gentle then Scotchbright. I use Scotchbright on tuning slides.

Have no idea about the quality of the valves in the trumpet you bought. Modern Yamaha's do not have any more problem then any other Monel Piston made by any of the larger OEM's from Kanstul to Bach and all the other's!

I am guessing their precision is not so high if you had problems once before and again with this brand in short time.

I would not worry about getting a Yamaha as long as it was 2325 or higher and not the cheaper Chinese models being sold online by some. Why? Have no clue about the other wise Chinese Market Yamaha's build quality. I would prob. order a Kanstul 700 series or 900 series and just have them put a 43 pipe on or a 25-0 pipe instead of the 25 pipe they come with. A Carol Student model sells for under $500 and has stainless steel precison machined pistons!
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I bought my last new Bb my teacher told me that the insides of the brass tubes may have a coating that will release over time that may gum the valves. He advised that I daily wipe the pistons and the cylinders with a clean lint-free cloth and apply oil generously. He also recommended blowing some oil down the leadpipe to help chase the crud out. The implication was that no amount of scrubbing in the tub would clear this and that time and patience were required. For some weeks wiping the pistons resulted in a fair amount of grey material. When the grey stopped the valves started working hassel-fee.

If I'm not mistaken Scotchbright is available in a variety of abrasivness. Some are gnarly as coarse sandpaper while others are very mild.
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toothpaste did not solve my valve problem on my Carol pocket trumpet and my Scotch brite pad was a very mild abrasive pad.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also buy .5 Micron Diamond paste on Ebay that is water souple......I love that stuff.....I use it on older horns especially first slides if I am putting an adjustable slide on them. Most of them are super stiff.

I think .5 Micron is between 6000 and 8000 grit depending on European, USA,Chinese grit conversion chart. Just keep in mind a little goes a long way and it keeps cutting until you flush it so do not over do it. Diamond dust in a water based gel is serious stuff. Not because it is aggressive but because unlike silica and other mild things used in home polishing compounds like Tooth paste and BRaso it keeps cutting so you can over do it if you are block head and go over board.

I do not have too much of a problem with clean never used Scoctbright so long as it is not done with enough force to scare the material or embed any of it's self in the base metal. I think SS is hard enough it is not much of a problem but monel for instance it would or could be dangerous in the wrong hands. It is kind of like sanding and buffing a bell in prudent hands even 300grit can be fine but in the hands of someone that has not done things like this it could be a disaster.

In fact I have used Braso and NeverDUll to clean pistons before too and zicronium clear coat rubbing compound as well and never hurt a piston or hurt compression yet but I am very careful and have a background working on machine, car's, watch's etc......So I think some people are just trying to be cautious.

I normally start with the least invasive and least traumatic path when working on anything with parts difficult to replace as in I can not run down to Home Depot and pick the aprts up cheap......

So lighter fluid and a mop down the bores, flash light to inspect for any rough spot's or dents outside or inside, layout dye or smudging the piston surface to look for high spot's or low spot's.......Toothpaste lap fromt he bottom with now guides then wash with Castrol Super Clean and a 15 minute piston soak white vingar......and so on.........I gradualy move up the latter especialy when talking about removing materials because it is not easy to put it back. If i mess up I have to send it too Andersons and have them hone it build it up and hone to size before I can ever start over. It is kind of like cooking and salt it is easy to add the salt hard to take it out in this case it is the other way around it is easy to remove a lot of material if not careful but hard to put it back. If you go too far you are basically wearing out the piston and bore earlier then need be. Plus often burnishing the bore is all that is needed.

So I do not think anyone was trying to jump on you. I think they just wanted the guy to try everything else before going the Scotchbrite method especially if still under warranty and exchange is an option or trading up?!?!

A lot of methods can have merit it is a matter of the person doing it and what the options are.
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James B. Quick
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a Scotch Brite Pad on my Kanstul Monel valves when I was cleaning my horn and they were screwed up for months. So, I would say don't use them. The only abrasive I would ever use on the valves again would be toothpaste, but I would be sure that it was completely out of the horn before it was re-assembled.

I'm not familiar with the John Packer 251sw trumpet. Is it Chinese made? I've found that a problem with Chinese horns is that the metal in the valves is incompatible with the metal in the valve casings. Before new environmental laws went into effect, in my business we used to use 'leadhead' nails to fasten galvanized corrugated roofing panels. The way they sealed was that as the lead washer corroded and interacted with the galvanized sheets, they would form a seal... I used to have a Chinese pocket trumpet and if I didn't play it for awhile the valves would seem to stick to the casings in a similar fashion...

jbq
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BrassEye
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
I would not worry about getting a Yamaha as long as it was 2325 or higher and not the cheaper Chinese models being sold online by some.


If you're looking at Yamaha but wanting to avoid Chinese horns, you're now looking at 5335 and up. The 4335 used to be Japanese but is now Chinese too.

I would still trust Yamaha wherever they are made; I have not had a negative experience with them in any way.
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Last edited by BrassEye on Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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baddoglive
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: sticky valves Reply with quote

contact me via email as i have some expert advise from the best in the busniess. sincerely, DW
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once upon a time, there was a version of ScotchBrite with no added abrasives - the only abrasive effect came from the texture of the pad itself. It was white, and I believe at that time there was only one white pad in their line. But I've long since exhausted my supply of those, and have given up trying to make much sense of the current ScotchBrite line from the scant information available on the company site. While I once would use the non-abrasive version if gentler things failed, I won't do it these days.

Acetone and a soft cloth will usually do the trick, but that's getting close to a last resort DIY cleaning.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using any abrasive, such as "Scotchbrite" pads, or toothpaste, is a big risk. I say that because if it goes wrong, you'll be into unknown repairs.

If a valve is loose, abrasives won't fix it. A thick valve oil is a far safer alternative.
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