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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: Passing Out in Upper Range, or Using Too Much Air Pressure |
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I am a middle-aged guy, 10.5 years into my comeback after a 20+ year layoff. I recently discovered the tongue position that allows me to play sustained passages in the upper range and have greatly improved endurance as well. That is the good. The bad is I tend to use too much PSI and sometimes find myself on the verge of passing out.
Now the reason we start to pass out when playing high notes is because we have too much air pressure in our chest cavity, and that air pressure restricts return blood flow to the heart, which in turn limits the bloodflow to the brain. Two MDs have explained that to me. They call it "vasal-vagal" (sp?) or simply "fainting," and it many factors can make it better or worse such as: age, physical conditioning, hydration, fatigue, nervousness, etc.
I am doing good on the conditioning, hydration, and fatigue part--which simply means I work out 5 days a week, stay hydrated, and try to avoid fatigue.
At present, I am trying to find the right amount of air pressure to sustain the upper notes without over doing it. Before I learned the high arched tongue position, I played high notes by over tensing my chops and then forcing air through. So I am used to "winding up" and letting it rip. Of course, that is not a prescription for endurance as the chops fatigue quickly.
With the tongue in the high arched position, not as much abdominal pressure is needed to get the air velocity, and the lips don't need to be as tense. The trick for me is finding this new balance. Finding this new balance is caused my accuracy to go to pot, as I am still learning the right setting. Sometimes I use too little air and undershoot the note, sometimes too much and start to pass out. Interestingly, when I am completely relaxed, I bypass all that and play very big high notes without coming close to passing out, so I know there is a way for me to get there. However, it is hard to get that relaxed when playing lead on the shout section of Jazz Police.
So for those who have been where I am, what practice strategies did you use to help you find the right balance and not over pressurize your air? _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Practice really soft. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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deleted_user_fdb91a0 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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"Interestingly, when I am completely relaxed, I bypass all that and play very big high notes without coming close to passing out, so I know there is a way for me to get there."
Clearly, you've already discovered the solution to your problem. At this point, maintaining that level of relaxation in performance is very simply just a matter of discipline and mental focus (and doing it while you practice charts, obviously). If you get lazy and start to tighten up...well, there's your problem. |
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silverhorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 681
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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As has been mentioned, too much tension is the key culprit. Learn to play more relaxed. Practicing softly in the upper register will help achieve this and at the same time help to focus your aperture. |
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ArmyTrumpet New Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2012 Posts: 6
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Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Remember to stay relaxed and maintain regular, deep breaths prior to your entrances. If you're tense before you come in, you're already in trouble. _________________ Erik Hasselquist
56th Army I Corps Band |
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TRUMPETSIZZLE Regular Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 62 Location: san francisco, ca
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:38 am Post subject: Compression socks to decrease dizziness and fainting |
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Compression socks to decrease dizziness and fainting due to Vasovagal Syncope
• Before known triggering events, the patient may increase consumption of salt and fluids to increase blood volume. Sports and energy drinks may be particularly helpful.
• Wearing graded compression stockings may be helpful.
• There are certain orthostatic training exercises which have been proven to improve symptoms in people with recurrent vasovagal syncope. A technique called "Applied Tension" which involves learning to tense the muscles in your torso, arms, and legs is effective for vasovagal Syncope.
The above is actually one of the techniques or strategies in my program.
If you are older than 30 and or taller than 5'9", you are likely facing a small to moderate degree of Vasovagal Syncope.
It may sound silly ( practically all posters here will attack ), but take it from somebody who has had to play under extreme conditions and under very high pressure: This is a real condition!
If you will be playing more than 1 hour in the upper register, I recommend the compression calf socks.
If you will be playing more than 2 hours in the upper register or playing even 1 hour where you frequently go up into the extreme upper register, I recommend you get the thigh high, open toed, compression socks.
Try 20mm at first, but I only notice results at the 30mm level of compression and the thigh high socks.
They recommend a visit with your doctor at any compression beyond 20mm, but, for me, if you are not wearing them all day, but only for a long rehearsal or gig, 30mm seems to be ok.
Lastly, don't listen to all the attackers here ( of my posts) who will be sure to be negative. The Majority of forum posters are anonymous and have little to no experience playing in the upper register or extreme upper register.
However, Drew's advice was also on the money! So take his advice plus:
Go to Walgreens or online and try the compression socks to see if they work....nobody will ever know that you have it on.
I heard a rumor that Maynard use to wear compression socks plus a huge girdle....I don't know whether that is true or not.
Good Luck!
http://www.trumpetsizzle.com _________________ http://www.billchase.net
http://www.jameslast.us
http://www.maynardferguson.net
http://www.onlinetrumpet.net
http://www.thetrumpet.ws
http://www.toplaytrumpet.com
http://www.trumpet.name
http://www.trumpeter.us
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Compression socks are an interesting concept. I was a USAF pilot for 24 years and when flying aircraft that could sustain high g-forces I wore a g-suit and learned to perform the "L-1" maneuver. A g-suit inflates under g forces and squeezes your legs and abs to keep blood from being pulled out of your head, and the L-1 maneuver involves taking breaths and scrunching your torso similar to to what you do when taking a dump. So the principles behind what you are saying make sense to me. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Drew and Sizzle are pretty much right on the money Major. Being one who has actually completely stared out during a performance, I'm here to tell you, it isn't fun! The one thing I neglected to do on that faithful day, was to make sure I was hydrated. We rehearsed in 95+ temps all day long then went out and did two performances. On a DH "B", out I went.
Let the "sparkies" be your warning! Stay hydrated, stay relaxed, don't push too much (overblow) and if needed, wear your pantyhose (sorry Sizzle, couldn't help it!). _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: |
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I agree with those who said to practice soft. While doing this ,also use as little pressure as possible. When playing the upper register in performance don't play above 80% of your top volume. Most headaches and blackouts occur when trying to play too loud on high notes. When playiing a high passage or holding the high note on that last chord,alway keep something in reserve,this will also help endurance. |
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RobS Regular Member
Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Posts: 46
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Believe it or not, but when you feel the flashes and white spots try squeezing your buttocks together.
It sure helped me out a few times. |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies. I will focus on playing soft. The upper range projects well enough at lesser volumes. I am also ocassionally getting headaches, which is more evidence I am pushing too hard.
Garrett,
One good thing about high g flying is being familiar with gray out and black out. I have not totally lost consciousness yet because of that. When the sensation begins I stop and take a breath, which relieves the pressure. It does take a little time to recover and can cause me to miss licks. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Garrett,
One good thing about high g flying is being familiar with gray out and black out. I have not totally lost consciousness yet because of that. When the sensation begins I stop and take a breath, which relieves the pressure. It does take a little time to recover and can cause me to miss licks. |
"Roger - That"
It happened to me so fast that I didn't even realize it. Evidently I was still playing even while out. All the way to the ground ! I hit so hard, all my tuning slides popped out of the horn. Luckily I hit my backside and nothing got hurt. Well, except for my ego... _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2160 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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In undergrad I played second next to a really powerful lead player who used to end a tune on a loud sustained high G, then hand his horn to me so he wouldn't damage it if he passed out. He was a big guy, about 6'5" and 220 pounds. I was about 135 wringing wet--glad he never actually passed out because he would have squashed me like a bug. _________________ Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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James B. Quick Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2003 Posts: 2067 Location: La Crosse, WI
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Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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You mentioned tha two MD's have given you advice, so I'm assuming that you have had your blood pressure checked and that it is in a reasonable range. If people are tending to pass out it often means too much tension in the muscles in the back of the neck. which can inhibit blood flow out of the head. Too much 'arm pressure' can cause a player to then have too much muscular tension in the neck to counteract it. So, loosening up helps.
However, if your blood pressure is too high you may be risking a stroke....
jbq |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:41 am Post subject: |
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My BP runs 120/60. If it was higher this issue would be less. While any neck tension would be counter productive, the primary cause is excessive air pressure in the chest cavity--at least according to these MDs.
BTW, I discovered tensing the legs and glutes does indeed help. That is also the first step of the L-1 maneuver, and it's goal is to keep the blood in your cranium so you don't black out, so all this makes sense. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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ltkije1966 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 1229 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: |
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My blood pressure medication gave me problems, lisinopril. I switched to amlodipine besylate and haven't had any issues. _________________ Scott Kuehn |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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ltkije1966 wrote: | My blood pressure medication gave me problems, lisinopril. I switched to amlodipine besylate and haven't had any issues. |
Did the Lisinipril cause you to be more prone to blacking out? I am on Lottrel, and I am more prone to being light headed than before I was on BP meds and my BP was higher. I expected this was just a consequence of lower BP, not an issue with the medication itself. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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hien peter Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 307
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: a |
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Pressure is one aspect, I wonder wether it could also be CO2-retention.
If you play for a longer time and long high parts,
it could come to too less gas exchange in the distant lung.
Older guys (like us ) have less exchange capacity.
Perhaps it could also help to take some deep breaths between ? _________________ playing trumpet is like meditation
Strad H37 & G 7s
martin committee 1946
Weimann C, Strad C
Conn V1 FH & MB6 |
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ltkije1966 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 1229 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: |
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afp wrote: | ltkije1966 wrote: | My blood pressure medication gave me problems, lisinopril. I switched to amlodipine besylate and haven't had any issues. |
Did the Lisinipril cause you to be more prone to blacking out? I am on Lottrel, and I am more prone to being light headed than before I was on BP meds and my BP was higher. I expected this was just a consequence of lower BP, not an issue with the medication itself. |
Yep, it was lisinopril. As soon as I switched med's everything was fine. It was like pulling teeth to get my doc to try something else. _________________ Scott Kuehn |
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paulabbott Regular Member
Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 23
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Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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I heard from a reliable source that Bud Brisbois explained his air usage in this way: A teaspoon of air for a hi "C". Half a teaspoon for the "E". Quarter of a teaspoon of air for the "G" (five ledger lines). I am paraphrasing of course, but this philosophy has certainly changed my approach to playing higher and longer. Don't tank up and use a ton of air. Remember that you really don't need a lot of air (volume) to play higher notes, just faster air. The trumpet was designed to project and the higher notes just carry naturally anyways. |
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