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Brian Moon
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 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| mahaberio wrote: | | Brian Moon wrote: | | ...when Marcus Stockhauasen played Upper Lip Dance and some other garbage at ITG in 1986. |
Markus Stockhausen is a dear friend and has been a very generous mentor to me. Like I said earlier, I'm happy to address criticism as I think a healthy discourse is important; but let's please keep comments productive. Openly bashing other players, particularly one on the level of Markus, just seems out of line and counter-productive to me.
-matthew |
Stockhausen played very well. I am bashing the so-called "music" not the player. If offered a concert that no one is supposedly allowed to leave (some did anyway). Don't go in.
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| hankinsmd wrote: | | A friend of mine is teaching at Chosen Vale this Summer. I was thinking about going out to it. How was your experience? |
Hi Mike,
I can say nothing but positive things about Chosen Vale and would highly recommend it for anyone. Looks like a great faculty and program again this year!
| Brian Moon wrote: | | Stockhausen played very well. I am bashing the so-called "music" not the player. |
Brian,
I'm sure you're sincere in this belief, but please understand that often repertoire choice is part and parcel to the artist as a whole. Trumpet playing is only a small part of a large equation. So, to throw around words like "garbage", "so-called music", etc. is a little respectless. |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| mahaberio wrote: |
| Brian Moon wrote: | | Stockhausen played very well. I am bashing the so-called "music" not the player. |
Brian,
I'm sure you're sincere in this belief, but please understand that often repertoire choice is part and parcel to the artist as a whole. Trumpet playing is only a small part of a large equation. So, to throw around words like "garbage", "so-called music", etc. is a little respectless. |
Mahaberio I'm sure you're sincere in your belief, but if you don't separate the player from the "music" it doesn't mean that I can't.
For me this equation = zero. If badly played it would be minus. For you it is plus, I have no problem with that but don't expect others to respect this stuff.
Never mind, I listened to a lot of Shining Forth There is no shine, the title is an insult to one's intelligiance. Some 9th graders could play it and a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the performance.
At least Upper Lip Dance starts with a kind of cool lick.
Stockhausen sounded much solid on this.
_________________
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“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak-
Last edited by Brian Moon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Moon wrote: | | For me this equation = zero. If badly played it would be minus. For you it is plus, I have no problem with that but don't expect others to respect this stuff. |
I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. I'm not sure where I indicated that that I think poor execution is a good thing... I said that trumpet playing is one small part of a large equation, but that doesn't mean that every element isn't important. Quality of music, technical proficiency, clear communication, attention to the details of aesthetics, etc. are all crucial elements. |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you could to re-read my first post then? What kind of insight do you need more than I was not happy with being "forced" to listen to this bologna? I stayed in respect to the ITG's wishes and a little fascination with Marcus' technique. Certainly not out of respect to the crap that was being performed.
Leaving? That's what I should have been doing 25¾ years ago.
_________________
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“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak-
Last edited by Brian Moon on Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Moon wrote: | Maybe you could to re-read my first post then? What knid of insight do you need more than I was not happy with being "forced" to listen to this bologna? I stayed in respect to the ITG's wishes and a little fascination with Marcus' technique. Certainly not out of respect to the crap that was being performed.
Leaving? That's what I should have been doing 25¾ years ago. |
Brian,
I think we can have these discussions without being so openly hostile, no? The circumstances under which you heard the music is not a critique of the music itself. So far we have a critique of one title and the suggestion that there would be little to no discernible difference between this performance and that of a 9th-grader? I wish there were something more I could say in this case, but it seems more of a critique on your own perception than on the piece and performance.
After that, the only thing you offer is a compliment to the Stockhausen, coupled with a mild criticism of my performance comparing it to one you heard 25 years ago... |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:57 am Post subject: |
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I already gave a critique of the music. It seems to me that you are fishing for publicity?
Do you think that you played it as well as Stockhausen did?
Craig Morris played better at the Chicago audition that I did. Does that help?
Actually I know of at least 3 guys who could have played the Shining in 9th grade with no difference heard by the audience. I am sure that there are more.
I waiting for someone to chime in with a Jack reference for comic relief. Make it a good one!
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http://tinyurl.com/ca9e4ht
“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak-
Last edited by Brian Moon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:47 am; edited 3 times in total |
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Moon wrote: | I already gave a critique of the music. It seems to me that you are fishing for publicity?
Do you think that you played it as well as Stockhausen did?
Craig Morris played better at the Chicago audition that I did. Does that help? |
That's not really the point. I was born in 1986, so I really wouldn't know how that performance went. In all likelihood, yes, it was much better than mine. I did study the piece with him and not the other way around for a reason, after all. I just found it an odd little jab to throw in there.
Anyway, this weird divergence has really distracted from what I thought was a healthy discussion earlier on. Too bad... |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:06 am Post subject: |
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My mistake, Upper Lip was written in 1983, I was thinking that you played it then.
If you are looking for warm fuzzies don't try it on someone who woke up from a weird dream at 5:30 in the morning.
A lot of people detest this stuff. You won't change their minds.
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http://tinyurl.com/ca9e4ht
“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak-
Last edited by Brian Moon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hankinsmd
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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TrumpetAce
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: |
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mahaberio,
I have full respect for your restraint and passion on this topic. Music, to me, is about the promotion of emotional response.. but too much randomness, dissonance, lack of resolution, will seperate the listener from the composition. - What makes them write such compositions? My theory is that they frankly do not care at all about the listener, and that their compositions are purposely crafted to be provocative, quirky, and basically unlistenable by the average listener. They will compose their "music" , get their grants, amaze people with their compositional and personal eccentricities, and continue on being " oh, so talented". Their music will be relegated to horror movies , and privately, musicians will abhor performing their works. Not like the premier of "Fresco" where the orchestra almost had a walkout. The human ear can be stretched to undertstand and appreciate the works of these composers, but that does not mean that is is music worthy of respect. I believe that it is manufactured for the "intelligencia", and it's all a big inside joke.
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| hankinsmd wrote: | | mahaberio wrote: |
Anyway, this weird divergence has really distracted from what I thought was a healthy discussion earlier on. Too bad... |
This did get weird. I'm deleting what I thought was a reply and dialog to an earlier post because this is not a meaningful dialog about music. This is something else, but I'm not sure what.
Mike |
Are you taking your ball and going home?
_________________
http://tinyurl.com/ca9e4ht
“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak- |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| TrumpetAce wrote: | mahaberio,
I have full respect for your restraint and passion on this topic. Music, to me, is about the promotion of emotional response.. but too much randomness, dissonance, lack of resolution, will seperate the listener from the composition. - What makes them write such compositions? My theory is that they frankly do not care at all about the listener, and that their compositions are purposely crafted to be provocative, quirky, and basically unlistenable by the average listener. They will compose their "music" , get their grants, amaze people with their compositional and personal eccentricities, and continue on being " oh, so talented". Their music will be relegated to horror movies , and privately, musicians will abhor performing their works. Not like the premier of "Fresco" where the orchestra almost had a walkout. The human ear can be stretched to undertstand and appreciate the works of these composers, but that does not mean that is is music worthy of respect. I believe that it is manufactured for the "intelligencia", and it's all a big inside joke. |
Right on. I do have more respect for this stuff than 4'33". At least they are not tripping that hard.
_________________
http://tinyurl.com/ca9e4ht
“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak- |
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A.N.A.Mendez
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: |
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OI 
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☛ Chumlee for president ☚ |
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hankinsmd
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:00 am Post subject: |
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TrumpetAce
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:24 am Post subject: |
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mahaberio wrote: First I'd like to point out that Webern was not a contemporary of Stockhausen and Ligeti.
***********They were all alive at the same time. Webern died in '45 and the other two were born in the 20's. Perhaps different definitions of "comtemporary".
mahaberio wrote:
One could write several doctoral theses on the significance of Stockhausen in different areas of music, ..... LICHT alone solidifies his genius to just about anyone who has taken the time to get to know it.
********************* No.
mahaberio wrote: Art is not always there to be easy on us. Its purpose in many cases is to challenge us and it seems that the prevailing (and easiest) response to this challenge is dismissal. This is not specific to music, but also to the worlds of literature, film, visual media, etc.
***********Mapplethorpe and Serrano would agree. But Art .. for the pure sake of shock and "going against the norm" is not automatically worthy of respect and admiration.
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi TrumpetAce,
Thanks for helping to get the topic back on track. A few things here.
| TrumpetAce wrote: | Music, to me, is about the promotion of emotional response.. but too much randomness, dissonance, lack of resolution, will seperate the listener from the composition. - What makes them write such compositions? My theory is that they frankly do not care at all about the listener, and that their compositions are purposely crafted to be provocative, quirky, and basically unlistenable by the average listener. ...
The human ear can be stretched to undertstand and appreciate the works of these composers, but that does not mean that is is music worthy of respect. I believe that it is manufactured for the "intelligencia", and it's all a big inside joke. |
First, we seem to be discussing compositional aesthetics from Webern to the present-day. This is an incredibly vast spectrum of music and each composer has their own intentions, so it's impossible to address these points in such generalized terms. For the sake of clear dialogue, let's isolate the discussion to the two composers at hand.
Stockhausen cared more for the listener than any other composer I'm familiar with. I think where the problem lies is that people tend to equate easily-understood music to being listener-friendly. I don't share this perspective and I would posit that neither did most of the important composers in history. Beethoven and Mahler did not seek to write music that was immediately understood by the general audience and this is reflected in their initial reception. There were generally-accepted norms that they did not adhere to as well, just as you state Stockhausen does not adhere to norms (though there is not one bit of randomness in this music, I assure you). To me, caring about an audience means that you believe they are capable of a challenge and that they will be rewarded for accepting it. This music DOES require more from the listener, and that's kind of the point. So, I guess there is a level of provocation, but not in the sense that it seeks to alienate people. Music that is immediately accessible has a pretty limited and surface-level breadth of communicative capacity. This music SHOULD make us examine our pre-conceived notions. And maybe when we do, it will resonate with us the way other music can't. This is certainly the case for me, and this music does indeed have a following for just this reason.
Sorry if this sounds overly-sappy, but that is what it is to be human after all.
| TrumpetAce wrote: | mahaberio wrote: First I'd like to point out that Webern was not a contemporary of Stockhausen and Ligeti.
***********They were all alive at the same time. Webern died in '45 and the other two were born in the 20's. Perhaps different definitions of "comtemporary". |
Yes, I think so. Ligeti was isolated in Hungary until 1956, and the only modern music he had access to until he fled to Vienna was that of Bartók, Kodály, Sandor Varess, etc. Stockhausen and Ligeti are both of a younger generation of composers who were heavily influenced by the Second Viennese composers, but built on what they did. |
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tptplayer
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the OP, and thanks as well for persisting even when certain personalities on this very open forum take you, and the composers, to task for simply presenting challenging material. I, for one, am a big fan of this genre, as well as more mainstream music. Without challenge there is no reason to get better. When I think I can play pretty well I pull out the music to Exposed Throat, knowing that, while it will probably never beer formed by me, it will help make me a better musician. To dismiss the music of Webern, Stockhausen, Ligitti, et al as garbage is absolutely ludicrous. To say you don't like it, don't understand it, prefer something else is certainly fine. But to classify as garbage something that challenges your intellect beyond comprehension is to admit the inability to grow. |
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TrumpetAce
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:53 am Post subject: |
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mahaberio wrote:
To me, caring about an audience means that you believe they are capable of a challenge and that they will be rewarded for accepting it. This music DOES require more from the listener, and that's kind of the point. So, I guess there is a level of provocation, but not in the sense that it seeks to alienate people.
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Thank you for putting it that way. You are a fantastic writer; you are able to convey your points very effectively.
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TrumpetAce
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| tptplayer wrote: | | To dismiss the music of Webern, Stockhausen, Ligitti, et al as garbage is absolutely ludicrous. To say you don't like it, don't understand it, prefer something else is certainly fine. But to classify as garbage something that challenges your intellect beyond comprehension is to admit the inability to grow. |
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I feel that it is possible to be TOO open-minded... to the point that you start losing any sense of your own personal artistic boundaries and intergrity. (And yes, you should have artistic boundaries... Mapplethorpe.. Serrano .. George Crumb...) Opening your mind - for the sake of opening your mind is not necessarily a wise thing to do.
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