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scatanas
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 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: |
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"BE OPEN MINDED. JUST MAKE SURE YOUR BRAIN DOESN'T FALL OUT."
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TrumpetAce
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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^^^ THIS ^^^
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AverageJoe
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:56 am Post subject: |
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You're going to find as many individual definitions of "music" as you will religious splinters and political ideologies. One man's poison might be another's elixir.
That said, I am happy to now be aware of Matthew Conley's playing! Bravo!!
Paul
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hankinsmd
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| hankinsmd wrote: | | It's not too often that you hear the idea of being more close minded. I think I would have a hard time knowing when to close my mind, but certainly not something I've ever thought about before. |
Consider a specific example. You might call it open-minded to embrace the idea of performance art with trumpet, such as dipping the bell in a bowl of oatmeal before you play and having a dog lick the oatmeal from the bell while you perform.
Others might call it ridiculous, or a joke.
If you're not sure if the performer and/or composer is pulling your leg to see how much you'll tolerate, then the mind might be "too open".  |
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hankinsmd
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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TrumpetAce
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ben_66_mario
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is an awesome topic to discuss and I find it extremely relevant to the situation that I am in currently. I teach 6-12 band in a very rural school district in Kansas. My students definition of music and my definition of music are two completely different things. For a warm-up the other day we played a scale (whole notes) in three groups with each group starting one measure after the next. The students were consistently one diatonic step from the group before or after them. I thought that it sounded great and that it really forced them to listen to tuning dissonant chords. However, they were up in arms about how horrible that it sounded and that they would never be doing that again.
Many of the folks that have chimed in on this subject have very valid points and in many cases there is no "right" answer. I would like to reiterate that music a very personal thing. I try to have the broadest definition of music that I can. Are there a lot of types of music I don't like? Heck Yeah! I almost maybe a student cry because I said I didn't like Johnny Cash, but I would never go to the trouble saying its not music. My policy with students is that they can not just say they do not like a certain song or style of music. They have to give a definite reason for their dislike. In many cases a student will say "It just sounds like crap/noise/etc." This is an unacceptable answer for me. I don't care if they dislike it, I am more interested in their ability to identify the characteristics of the music they dislike.
I think its important to note that (like many others have already) that many music art forms were created to push the envelope. If we keep listening and playing the same music over and over their will be no growth. I believe that our creativity as musicians is one of our most important assets and that a lack of growth would severely dampen any such creativity.
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| hankinsmd wrote: | | It's not too often that you hear the idea of being more close minded. I think I would have a hard time knowing when to close my mind, but certainly not something I've ever thought about before. |
To me this has nothing to do with being open or closed minded. It's about quality and taste and purpose.
Imagine a high end restaurant where you are served very small portions of meticulously prepared ingredients. The presentation is careful and artful.
Let's say the dish is challenging, a odd combination of flavors and textures that defy typical tastes.
Let's imagine another dish, prepared just as carefully. However, it is not only is challenging, it tastes terrible. The combination of flavors and textures is nauseating.
Let's imagine a third dish. In this the cook is not even trying to make the dish edible, he's just arranging inedible things in an artful way on a plate.
To me, far too many people are tolerant and even complementary of the musical equivalents of the latter two. They ascribe lofty adjectives to music that exemplifies it - saying it's "challenging" or "complex" or that the listener needs to be "open minded."
To me, they're simply compositional self-gratification. I don't know what the purpose of the composition is. The performer gets nothing out of it. The audience can barely tolerate it - if they even remain in their seats.
I wonder what the mentality is for people who actually enjoy that "stuff" is. I've studied it, listened to it, tolerated it, and performed it. I wonder if by pretending to "get it" or "enjoy it" they simply feel intellectually superior. I don't know if this is the case, but it's a theory.
| mahaberio wrote: | | As for Matthias' piece, I think it's beautiful, unique writing. |
It might be the latter, but it's definitely not the former. I don't think it would meet anyone's definition of beauty. I really don't even comprehend how anyone can ascribe such a word to that horrible collection of sounds.
Honestly, I want someone to explain what is appealing about it.
People have thrown around examples like Stravinsky, Webern, and Mahler. Webern was at least attempting to find a new tonal "language" for western music. I don't like or enjoy most of his music and much of it is intellectual, but at least there is some of what I would call "music" involved. He's also not really considered very "important" outside of college composition classes and isn't often performed for that reason.
Stravinsky also explored new and challenging tonalities in some of his compositions. Audiences found it challenging at the time, but his music is still studied AND performed. Mahler is the same, he sought to expand the sound of the classical world, but rooted his compositions in the sounds of nature, folk songs, and the emotions of life. That's why he's such an influence in music today - listen to any classical Hollywood soundtrack and it's very attributable to Mahler.
History has vindicated these guys (well, at least Mahler and Stravinsky). Will people outside of college classrooms care about compositions like the ones in the video in fifty years? I doubt it.
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hankinsmd
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Winthrop Trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Matt is a great trumpet player and is very serious about his craft. if you don't like the pieces that's fine, everyone can have their opinions. I happen to like both videos and the music he is performing very much. But at the very least you must respect the playing and the craft. A good friend of mine said to me recently "there are those who do talk about those who do", Matt is a doer.
Mark
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TrumpetAce
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn, thanks for the analogies with the culinary arts. That was perfect, and I believe you and I share the same views. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. lol
hankinsmd .. c'mon, man.
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Winthrop Trumpet wrote: | | Matt is a great trumpet player and is very serious about his craft. if you don't like the pieces that's fine, everyone can have their opinions. I happen to like both videos and the music he is performing very much. But at the very least you must respect the playing and the craft. A good friend of mine said to me recently "there are those who do talk about those who do", Matt is a doer. |
I've got no problem with the performer. He's clearly talented and made the difficult passages in the pieces sound as good as they could be. I don't care much for his choice in repertoire, but it is his choice (presumably). I think his talent is wasted on those particular musical choices, but he's free to play whatever he wants to.
| TrumpetAce wrote: | Crazy Finn, thanks for the analogies with the culinary arts. That was perfect, and I believe you and I share the same views. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. lol
hankinsmd .. c'mon, man. |
Thanks, man. I'm just mystified by anyone who thinks there's much of anything of value in those compositions. But, it's a free world. People can write, play, or enjoy what they wish - or think that it's complete junk, as well.
I'm a little reminded of the documentary "My Kid Could Paint That." There are passages in those pieces that really sounded similar to what some of my 4th grade students write in the blank measure in their lesson books for fun. While listening to those pieces, I sometimes wondered about that.
I know several people have mentioned how meticulously these pieces are composed. Perhaps they are - I have no idea. They don't sound that way, to me, though.
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Winthrop Trumpet
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Is it a waste if he believes in it?
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Mark Dulin
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Winthrop Trumpet wrote: | | Is it a waste if he believes in it? |
It's a matter of opinion. I think it's a waste of his talent. If he believes it's worth his time, then he's free to spend his time on it. Listening to it was pretty much a waste of my time, in my opinion.
Seriously, I really want to know what redeeming value music like this has. Clearly there are folks on here who think it has some. I think it has none. I have a degree in music, performance, and education. I studied trumpet and music for years. The brass septet I used to perform with played contemporary music as part of their repertoire. Some of it was strange, but I thought most of it had some value. I enjoy a broad range of music. I like strange world music from all over the globe. I listen to singers singing in languages I don't understand. I buy weird CDs at the used CD shop when I can't read any of the words on the cover. But, I really think this kind of stuff is almost devoid of any musical value.
I really want to hear if it's possible to actually articulate in words what value this stuff has.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | hankinsmd wrote: | | It's not too often that you hear the idea of being more close minded. I think I would have a hard time knowing when to close my mind, but certainly not something I've ever thought about before. |
To me this has nothing to do with being open or closed minded. It's about quality and taste and purpose.
Imagine a high end restaurant where you are served very small portions of meticulously prepared ingredients. The presentation is careful and artful.
Let's say the dish is challenging, a odd combination of flavors and textures that defy typical tastes.
Let's imagine another dish, prepared just as carefully. However, it is not only is challenging, it tastes terrible. The combination of flavors and textures is nauseating.
Let's imagine a third dish. In this the cook is not even trying to make the dish edible, he's just arranging inedible things in an artful way on a plate.
To me, far too many people are tolerant and even complementary of the musical equivalents of the latter two. They ascribe lofty adjectives to music that exemplifies it - saying it's "challenging" or "complex" or that the listener needs to be "open minded."
To me, they're simply compositional self-gratification. I don't know what the purpose of the composition is. The performer gets nothing out of it. The audience can barely tolerate it - if they even remain in their seats.
I wonder what the mentality is for people who actually enjoy that "stuff" is. I've studied it, listened to it, tolerated it, and performed it. I wonder if by pretending to "get it" or "enjoy it" they simply feel intellectually superior. I don't know if this is the case, but it's a theory.
| mahaberio wrote: | | As for Matthias' piece, I think it's beautiful, unique writing. |
It might be the latter, but it's definitely not the former. I don't think it would meet anyone's definition of beauty. I really don't even comprehend how anyone can ascribe such a word to that horrible collection of sounds.
Honestly, I want someone to explain what is appealing about it.
People have thrown around examples like Stravinsky, Webern, and Mahler. Webern was at least attempting to find a new tonal "language" for western music. I don't like or enjoy most of his music and much of it is intellectual, but at least there is some of what I would call "music" involved. He's also not really considered very "important" outside of college composition classes and isn't often performed for that reason.
Stravinsky also explored new and challenging tonalities in some of his compositions. Audiences found it challenging at the time, but his music is still studied AND performed. Mahler is the same, he sought to expand the sound of the classical world, but rooted his compositions in the sounds of nature, folk songs, and the emotions of life. That's why he's such an influence in music today - listen to any classical Hollywood soundtrack and it's very attributable to Mahler.
History has vindicated these guys (well, at least Mahler and Stravinsky). Will people outside of college classrooms care about compositions like the ones in the video in fifty years? I doubt it. |
Uh, like I said........ 
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MFHorn13
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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This is truly one of the funniest things I've seen on this forum. You have a gift with words!!!
| scatanas wrote: | So what will his next video be like? Perhaps blowing into the bell with the mpc facing the audience, while wearing green pants with purple buttons and a fluorescent pink zipper while riding a unicycle with a square tire pulling a little cart that has a blue watermelon in it.
Thanks, but I'll pass. |
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MFHorn13
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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This is truly one of the funniest things I've seen on this forum. You have a gift with words!!!
| scatanas wrote: | So what will his next video be like? Perhaps blowing into the bell with the mpc facing the audience, while wearing green pants with purple buttons and a fluorescent pink zipper while riding a unicycle with a square tire pulling a little cart that has a blue watermelon in it.
Thanks, but I'll pass. |
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TrumpetAce
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Winthrop Trumpet wrote: | | Is it a waste if he believes in it? |
**** In that case, it would be a double waste. There is SO MUCH music available to the trumpet.. why would anyone perform or practice or willingly listen to the Stockhausen piece for example? (Or most of Stockhausen's work for that matter.)
The composers I have been railing against in this thread have disrespected the spirit of music.. and the underlying purpose of music. But instead, their supporters and disciples will continue to push the envelope of organized sound. For what purpose? To be different. Oh, the uniqueness that is theirs... Check out that Curnow video. It is not far from the truth at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kKSvk1NMuM&feature=channel[/url][/u]
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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The funny thing is those "excerpts" in the Curnow video are actually pretty awesome, especially number 3. |
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