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Don Lee
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 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't care for it myself as it doesn't fit in with what I think the trumpet is all about. And therein lies the issue. If you set aside your preconceptions (that is if you are able or even willing to) you might be surprised.
Try this. Play it without watching the video. Listen to it for what it is and not for what you think it should be. Try it (for real) and then post. |
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hankinsmd
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Donjon
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scatanas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:14 am Post subject: |
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now THAT is just beautiful. I can listen to that all day and then some.
Listen man, you can't blame someone for not liking the initial videos in this thread. Not pleasant to listen to and listening to that for more than 10-15 min max irritates the heck out of me (can you imagine sitting in through a 2 hour concert of that???) I believe that even in the art world there are absolutes (at least at the concept level) and I can't just accept ANYTHING only because it's done in the name of art regardless of how stupid and senseless it sound or looks (in the case of painters) - and then accept some idiot's idea that maybe I am not "open minded" enough.
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hankinsmd
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| scatanas wrote: |
now THAT is just beautiful. I can listen to that all day and then some.
Listen man, you can't blame someone for not liking the initial videos in this thread. Not pleasant to listen to and listening to that for more than 10-15 min max irritates the heck out of me (can you imagine sitting in through a 2 hour concert of that???) I believe that even in the art world there are absolutes (at least at the concept level) and I can't just accept ANYTHING only because it's done in the name of art regardless of how stupid and senseless it sound or looks (in the case of painters) - and then accept some idiot's idea that maybe I am not "open minded" enough. |
You are right , Man. I can't blame anyone for not liking the initial video. I don't remember doing that. In fact, I don't remember telling anyone what they should think. I have heard why no one should like this or that. I feel like I keep asking questions to hear more about what other people think and instead of entering a dialog, the point is being lost at every turn.
I had no intention of telling anybody what to think. In fact quite the opposite. I have learned my lesson.
-Mike |
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | I really want to hear if it's possible to actually articulate in words what value this stuff has. |
That's a really strange burden of proof to put on any piece of art, no? I could take the time to write a theoretical analysis of OBERLIPPENTANZ, tying it into LICHT as a cycle and showing you how it's all derived from a super-formula that works on numerous levels, kind of mirroring fractals before fractal theory was even formally established. Or, I could write about Stockhausen's philosophies of performance aesthetics. Or, we could take it on a purely instrumental level and point out that in this piece (please note, the video is only an excerpt of about a third of the piece), he and Markus developed a palette of sounds on the piccolo trumpet (for example, there are 7 levels of wha-wha mute colorations all based on vowel sounds), the refinement of which remains unsurpassed thirty years later. I could do all of this, but I don't want to take the time to write it, you don't want to to take the time to read it, and at the end of the day we will always arrive at subjectives and we'll be right back where we started.
I guess what surprises me is the hostility hurled at such music. It's not enough to not care for it or offer a perspective. Sometimes people will, in the same post, state that they don't understand it and then say how horrible it is. This is very strange to me. At least more energy was put into that than into the drive-by mockery by some, I suppose. I guess I'm just not used to seeing such impassioned view AGAINST something. I tend to focus my energies on what I find positive value in.
I've said it in other words on here before, but this is the value of this music for me:
"Certain music awakens – not in general, but for certain beings who can vibrate with it – that higher being within us who we constantly want to become. We really always want to become someone who is better than who we are at the moment, otherwise our whole life would have no meaning.
In this way, I want to climb; in this way I want to become someone who is more highly developed, and who becomes more capable every day. For this, music is a means, a completely personal means. I want to have my music, I want to develop my intuition, my creative ability, which changes through doing, while carrying out these things. And suddenly I do something unheard-of, because the music liberated me. Music is a means, through which one can suddenly fly."
-Stockhausen, 1975 |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | I really want to hear if it's possible to actually articulate in words what value this stuff has. |
| mahaberio wrote: | | That's a really strange burden of proof to put on any piece of art, no? I could take the time to write a theoretical analysis of OBERLIPPENTANZ, tying it into LICHT as a cycle and showing you how it's all derived from a super-formula that works on numerous levels, kind of mirroring fractals before fractal theory was even formally established. Or, I could write about Stockhausen's philosophies of performance aesthetics. Or, we could take it on a purely instrumental level and point out that in this piece (please note, the video is only an excerpt of about a third of the piece), he and Markus developed a palette of sounds on the piccolo trumpet (for example, there are 7 levels of wha-wha mute colorations all based on vowel sounds), the refinement of which remains unsurpassed thirty years later. I could do all of this, but I don't want to take the time to write it, you don't want to to take the time to read it, and at the end of the day we will always arrive at subjectives and we'll be right back where we started. |
Yes, well, much of that is intellectual and compositional value - not aesthetic or more specifically, aural value. I'm not really interested in a "math in music" kind of intellectual exercise as a piece of music if it doesn't have any value to me as a listener or performer. I'm not opposed to the intellectual exercise in of itself, it's just that it has to interest me as something to listen to. Is that subjective? Sure. Taste in art, music, literature - all somewhat subjective.
| mahaberio wrote: | | I guess what surprises me is the hostility hurled at such music. It's not enough to not care for it or offer a perspective. Sometimes people will, in the same post, state that they don't understand it and then say how horrible it is. |
I'm sorry if I come off as hostile toward this music. In reality I'm mostly just uninterested in most music composed in this style.
Also, I never said I didn't understand it (I do, I've studied modern composition) - I said I didn't understand how people think it has any real value as a piece of music to listen to and perform, as opposed to a piece of music to simply study on the page.
Again, though, that's simply my opinion. It's completely Ok to disagree. I don't get why people like Toby Keith, either.
I'm sure there was terrible music composed in previous musical periods. Most of it has probably been forgotten and the manuscripts have crumbled to dust. Mostly, only decent stuff survives the test of time. It's not surprising that most popular classical compositions that are still around after centuries are pretty decent.
There is lots of music I think isn't very good. Most of it is not weird modern classical compositions.
| mahaberio wrote: | I've said it in other words on here before, but this is the value of this music for me:
"Certain music awakens – not in general, but for certain beings who can vibrate with it – that higher being within us who we constantly want to become. We really always want to become someone who is better than who we are at the moment, otherwise our whole life would have no meaning. In this way, I want to climb; in this way I want to become someone who is more highly developed, and who becomes more capable every day. For this, music is a means, a completely personal means. I want to have my music, I want to develop my intuition, my creative ability, which changes through doing, while carrying out these things. And suddenly I do something unheard-of, because the music liberated me. Music is a means, through which one can suddenly fly."
-Stockhausen, 1975 |
I love the Stockhausen quote. I happen to think that much of his music doesn't actually possess any of the qualities he is describing, but, again, that's a matter of opinion.
In my opinion:
Technical difficulty ≠ quality composition (necessarily)
An original and unique approach in composition ≠ quality composition (necessarily)
I think too many academic trumpeters get caught up in those aspects of a piece. As a result they loose a few essential questions:
- Is this a good piece of MUSIC.
- Is this piece of music worth listening to.
My opinion is on the first two videos (the one on this page is still loading) is "no" to both questions.
Edit: I just listened to the "Moving Sound" piece on this page. That's pretty neat - new, different, interesting and pleasant to listen to. Definite aural value there, in my opinion. Very cool.
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spitvalve
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Don Lee
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | An acquired taste that I have never been able to acquire, like anchovy pizza. |
I never had an anchovy pizza because everyone said it tasted so bad. Then one day I tried it and liked it............ |
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Yes, well, much of that is intellectual and compositional value - not aesthetic or more specifically, aural value. |
And how, exactly, does one express an aural value in words? One can describe what they hear in words, or describe what the music makes them feel, but then we're dealing purely in subjectives. All of this goes back to what I've been saying since the beginning. This music can and does touch people on an emotional, expressive, and spiritual level that other musics can not. This is not a value judgment on other musics, it's just a demonstration of why diversity is important. It may not resonate with you, and that's fine; but then to assert that it has no value or that the only reason people like it is for a false sense of superiority is a pretty inflammatory way of saying "it's ok to disagree", and one I feel I have to address as it calls my personal sincerity into question.
[Sorry for the million edits, but I think I need to include this last one for clarity's sake: Your main premise seems to be that you don't understand what the aesthetic value of this music is and, therefore, can't understand why anyone would think there is any. I'm just hoping some of this mountain of text addresses that and illuminates it for you.]
In terms of rewards for the performer, I've never played a Stockhausen work that didn't make me a better musician, and person, in some way. This is such refined, intricate, music that even preparing it (and preparing it well) touches us and opens us up in ways that other musics simply can not. These experiences carry over into our daily lives.
| Crazy Finn wrote: | | I'm sure there was terrible music composed in previous musical periods. Most of it has probably been forgotten and the manuscripts have crumbled to dust. Mostly, only decent stuff survives the test of time. It's not surprising that most popular classical compositions that are still around after centuries are pretty decent. |
If this is your burden of proof, then I would point out that this music is being disseminated. Every year, over a hundred (mostly young) performers gather for about two weeks in a small town in Germany for the sole purpose of studying Stockhausen's music. In 2009, the Proms had a day completely dedicated to Stockhausen. In 2010, the entirety of the completed parts of the late KLANG cycle were presented in Cologne and thousands of people came to hear it over a two-day period. Last year, the premier of the complete version of SONNTAG was presented to sold-out audiences over (I think) seven performances. This year, the New York Philharmonic will present GRUPPEN for the first time. There are more and more performances of this music year after year. It's not going away any time soon.
If you want to talk about influence, you wouldn't have post-1971 Miles Davis without Stockhausen, or much of Frank Zappa, Pink Floyd, Björk, Jerfferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead; not to mention countless composers of the last two generations. Even STRAVINSKY works of the late 1950's were influenced by Stockhausen. On this:
"I have all around me the spectacle of composers who, after their generation has had its decade of influence and fashion, seal themselves off from further development and from the next generation (as I say this, exceptions come to mind, Krenek, for instance). Of course, it requires greater effort to learn from one's juniors, and their manners are not invariably good. But when you are seventy-five and your generation has overlapped with four younger ones, it behooves you not to decide in advance "how far composers can go," but to try to discover whatever new thing it is makes the new generation new."
-Stravinsky
| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Also, I never said I didn't understand it (I do, I've studied modern composition) - I said I didn't understand how people think it has any real value as a piece of music to listen to and perform, as opposed to a piece of music to simply study on the page. |
I wasn't referring to you, per se. This is just semantics though. What's more to the point is that you're asserting that because YOU don't see the value in it, then there mustn't be any.
This next point is hard to discuss without sounding overly-critical, but I think it's an important one.
While you say you've "studied" this music, you speak about it like you really haven't at all. Now, having studied it doesn't mean that you like it or appreciate it, but at the very least, if you "understand" it, you would know that Stockhausen's music (after the aleatoric period) is incredibly intricately composed. Anyone who has spent any time looking at LICHT (from which SAMSTAG comes, which contains LUZIFERs TANZ, which is where OBERLIPPENTANZ comes from) at all knows that there is not a single bit of "randomness" in there. If you're going to claim to have studied this music, at least demonstrate some basic knowledge about it. "Modern composition" in and of itself is not a thing to study. It's not a methodology or even a genre; it's the most diverse musical period in history. Because you have looked at X piece by Berio or X piece by Xenakis does not mean you "understand" all of this music. It would be like saying you understand late Beethoven Quartets because you once studied Schumann; except in many ways a more extreme claim. You're not alone in holding music degrees, I have three myself. I know how this stuff is "taught".
| Crazy Finn wrote: | Technical difficulty ≠ quality composition (necessarily)
An original and unique approach in composition ≠ quality composition (necessarily) |
Ah! A point where we whole-heartedly agree. I'm just not sure where you think I or anyone else asserted anything to the contrary. You're confusing your opinion with fact and positing that if someone finds value in this music, they must do it independently of this vague "aural value" because you don't see any.
| Crazy Finn wrote: | I think too many academic trumpeters get caught up in those aspects of a piece. As a result they loose a few essential questions:
- Is this a good piece of MUSIC.
- Is this piece of music worth listening to. |
These are of course crucial questions, but you're confusing your lack of appreciation of this music with others' negligence of them.
The only thing one can really respond with at this point is a variation on "I don't like it." Can we leave it at that, please?
Last edited by mahaberio on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:43 am; edited 10 times in total |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Edit: I just listened to the "Moving Sound" piece on this page. That's pretty neat - new, different, interesting and pleasant to listen to. Definite aural value there, in my opinion. Very cool. |
Only compared to the other junk, CF. The piece wanders aimlessly. It resembles something played by Kenny G.
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TrentAustin
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Moon wrote: | | Crazy Finn wrote: | | Edit: I just listened to the "Moving Sound" piece on this page. That's pretty neat - new, different, interesting and pleasant to listen to. Definite aural value there, in my opinion. Very cool. |
Only compared to the other junk, CF. The piece wanders aimlessly. It resembles something played by Kenny G. |
That's one of the most ignorant comments I've read on this forum recently.
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Yet another Kenny G fan?
Ignorant would be if I didn't listen to the tune or didn't know what Kenny G's music sounded like but since I just received a whole pile of music from an old friend who passed away I do know that Kenny G =
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
That Wiseman Eb/D played pretty well didn't it?
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A.N.A.Mendez
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | An acquired taste that I have never been able to acquire, like anchovy pizza. |
Love your avatar
Reminds me of this .....
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Sustained note
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:27 am Post subject: Naked! |
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"The king IS naked"
I'm an amateur and don't have a degree in music.
Still, I am at least fully qualified as..."member of the audience".
I don't mind saying it aloud, in public: Can't stand this stuff!!
I love many different genres of Music, not just Classical and pre-classical.
I refuse to acknowledge THESE as "Music". Go ahead and shoot me!
In full agreement with the previous posters who detested these "things" and some explained why, extremely well.
Sorry about my remark regarding the name of the piece (I deleted it now). It really was in poor taste.
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Last edited by Sustained note on Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| A.N.A.Mendez wrote: | | spitvalve wrote: | | An acquired taste that I have never been able to acquire, like anchovy pizza. |
Love your avatar
Reminds me of this .....
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Is that a Bb or an Eb Dachsund?
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spitvalve
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mahaberio
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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So, it's become pretty clear that this thread has lost any shred of relevance it may have had. I appreciate those on both sides who at least tried to engage in a meaningful dialogue, but, while it was difficult before, it seems pretty impossible now.
For those of you who felt the need to mock and degrade this music without a willingness to actually engage in a dialogue about it (which, sad to say, was the majority), at least do yourself the favor of asking why some notes played on a trumpet have inspired such vitriol in you. I think you'll find it says a lot more about you than about the music.
Peace and Love,
matthew |
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spitvalve
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I will try to formulate a more intelligent response, Mr. Conley (and I do this with the utmost respect for your excellent young trumpet chops and your passion for unconventional music).
I've never developed a taste for this kind of music, though I made every effort. I spent three years as the recital hall stage manager at my undergrad music school and had to be at every student and faculty recital. I tried hard to listen objectively, and once in awhile something was fresh and interesting, but most of it seemed pointless, and received only polite, forced applause from the audience. No one was enriched by the performances because they either a) had no legitimate frame of reference (e.g., program notes or some prior explanation of what to listen for) or b) because it really was absolute crap.
I actually once performed a piece in this genre that was written for me by a very talented college roommate. It was a four-movement work based on my life and some of our inside jokes from the apartment. It involved stuff like playing atonal bebop lines with the 2nd slide removed, blowing across the bottom valve caps and using the valves like a slide whistle (to simulate the squeegee sounds of my early morning job as a window washer), half-valves, spitting in the horn, screech notes, pedal tones, and other myriad effects in addition to blowing a few actual notes. Had my roommate not explained at the beginning what each movement was about, the audience would have had no clue and would have been sitting there slack-jawed and glassy-eyed, or looking at their watches. But because they had a frame of reference, they were able to enjoy the spirit of the piece and were entertained by some outside-the-box music.
Mathematical formulas and matrices have their place, but if the result is something the audience can't relate to, why perform it? I had a composition class my senior year that encouraged us to experiment with structure--especially with tone rows and tetrachords. We spent the whole semester writing string quartets for a group that was specifically hired to play our compositions each week. I kept getting C+ after C+ on my compositions, which to me seemed quite musical and even adventurous, and the quartet liked them as well. The professor hated them, and I was only kept from getting lower grades by the fact that I did attempt to use the formulas he outlined.
For our final project we had to compose a three-movement work using all that we had learned. Knowing that I would never be able to write something to satisfy him, I decided to write a real piece of crap. I took my tone matrix, corkscrewed it, cut it into tetrachords, corkscrewed them, stacked them on top of each other, and the result was total, indecipherable cacophony. The quartet thought I'd been smoking crack. It was truly one of the most horrible things I've ever written, to my ears.
I got an A+ on the assignment! He commented "this is the most structured piece you've ever written." No matter that it sounded like a sack of feral cats being run through a wood chipper; all he cared about was that it had structure. To this day I can't listen to the recording we made without rolling my eyes.
My take on this style of music is that it's often fun to write, fun to perform, but not so much fun to listen to unless one is prepared beforehand with some frame of reference. Penderecki's "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima," for example, is a horrible mass of screeching strings and atonal glop, unless one is able to relate it to prior knowledge about what happened at Hiroshima--the flash, the fire, the black rain, the flesh falling off of bones--then the listener can relate the sounds to the visual images. And though I understand and appreciate the cutting-edge genius (at the time) of Penderecki's composition for what it represents, I will have to confess it's not on my mp3 playlist and I can happily live out the rest of my days without ever hearing it again.
Hence my earlier comment about it being an acquired taste (and I do aplogize for the surrealist joke; I couldn't resist it). I wouldn't order anchovies on my pizza if my life depended on it. Does that make anchovy pizza bad? In my world, yes. Putting smelly fish on pizza is not my idea of yummy. But obviously enough people like it that it's on the menu at some pizza restaurants.
So more power to you and your musical anchovies, Matthew. I wish you great success in your career--you're obviously not in it for the money--but please don't think ill of me if I don't buy your CD's. I prefer the pepperoni and sausage or Canadian bacon and pineapple.
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder why so many people feel so threatened by things that are different; things that don't fit their definitions of what music is. Do you give something up when you acknowledge the validity of something that is outside your box?
What if, instead of starting from the preconception of what it is, you started from what it isn't. Or better, a complete absence of what it is or is not. When was the last time you just laid down and opened your ears and let sound come into your ears and did not judge what that sound is?
Now, what if you did this with sound that was made by musicians? Just hearing what was there without judgement and without any expectations.
I wonder who's brave to empty their minds completely of preconceptions, and read John Cage's "Silence" and simply meditate on the thoughts he brings up about sound.
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