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etc-etc
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 Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I can only comment on making trial-and-error more efficient.
How many variables are we optimizing?
1. Rim shape - round, semi-round, flat.
2. Alpha angle - wide, medium, sharp.
3. Rim diameter - wide, medium, small.
4. Cup depth - deep, medium, shallow.
5. Cup shape - U, in-between, V.
6. Throat - narrow, medium, open.
7. Backbore - open, medium, tight.
Total possibilities = 3^7 = 2187.
You will need a Warburton system case full of rims, cups and backbores.
27 rims to accommodate variables 1,2,3.
27 cups to accommodate variables 4,5,6.
3 backbores - variable 7.
A lot of time and desire to experiment. |
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| If you throw away the rim shape and cup shape, you reduce the possibilities to 3^5=243, and have 9 rims and 9 cups to work with. |
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Cadenza
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | ... A lot of time and desire to experiment. |
Yes, exactly! Hence the original post to see whether anyone is able to share some good wisdom rather than "trialing and erroring" forever.  |
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irith
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | I can only comment on making trial-and-error more efficient.
How many variables are we optimizing?
<snip>
A lot of time and desire to experiment. |
I think you could be more efficient, however. Take rim diameter and contour as a constant from whatever you were previously using, via screw-rim or similar processes. For cups, make some obvious cuts where you know it won't be appropriate for the style you're using. If we assume all-around work in the Warburton system, fairly limited selection - M, MC, MD cups would be the ones to look at. Only three choices so far. Once that is determined, test a mid-size backbore and listen to sound, expanding 1-2 sizes in each direction. Probably no more than 5 needed total. Pick the one that sounds best, and if resistance is too much/too little for the best sounding backbore, you can open the throat or get a smaller one.
Past that, you possibly have gap to work with, and probably a range of no more than 3 middle range sleeves to find optimum response unless you've got something really odd.
All told, 1 rim x 3 cups x 5 backbores x 3 throat sizes x 3 sleeves = only 135 total combinations, most of which should be eliminated fairly early. If you can keep the rim constant, and know what you're looking for, it could be a relatively straightforward ordeal.
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Trumpets.
Mouthpieces.
I have some. |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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Location: Bloomington Indiana
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | PH wrote: | | I'll choose laser surgery over leeches and a saw every time. |
So, who did the PVA and bore optimization on your Bach? |
It didn't need it. I showed it to two different experts and they said it was the best assembled Bach they had ever seen. Bought new from the factory in January 2011.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Well, I'm sure you're in the ballpark. Keep sawing away . . .
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: |
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A home run isn't in the ball park! 
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Retlaw
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Walter
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"Relax and focus on becoming a trumpet player."
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I don't know anything about baseball.
However, I do know that PVA is just as critical to a discerning player as the nuances of a GR mpc consultation. If you're telling me that Bach's QC involves bore optimization and PVA, I would be highly impressed. If you're telling me that the horn plays and sounds good so it doesn't matter, then your earlier analogy makes no sense.
PH said:
| Quote: | | And you would definitely be in the ballpark if you did that. However, we are past the point in history where trumpet players need to work with such blunt instruments. |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | Sorry, I don't know anything about baseball.
However, I do know that PVA is just as critical to a discerning player as the nuances of a GR mpc consultation. If you're telling me that Bach's QC involves bore optimization and PVA, I would be highly impressed. If you're telling me that the horn plays and sounds good so it doesn't matter, then your earlier analogy makes no sense.
PH said:
| Quote: | | And you would definitely be in the ballpark if you did that. However, we are past the point in history where trumpet players need to work with such blunt instruments. |
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No. I'm telling you that I had this horn checked out by two internationally known and highly reputable equipment designers, tweakers and repair techs and both said it was the best made Bach they had ever seen and didn't need to be tweaked at all.
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Jon Arnold
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| My old 6310-Z played great right out of the box, no tweaks needed. My 8310-Z was sent to Bobby Shew for a tweak and it was definitely needed. It is possible to pick a horn out of a batch and it plays great as is. |
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Retlaw
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nate you keep bashing on about optimizing and pva...surely if a horn is made true to design with no flaws it does not need to be messed with.? Yes of course you can go and take a horn and mess with it..open it up if you like but then it will not be true to the original design....?
Walter
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"Relax and focus on becoming a trumpet player."
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Nate you keep bashing on about optimizing and pva...surely if a horn is made true to design with no flaws it does not need to be messed with.? |
Yes Walter, that is exactly what I'm saying. Pat won't answer that question. He keeps insisting that all the planets lined up and there was that 1 in a million chance that all the parts used happened to match precisely to the specs. If that were the case of course I am very happy for him, but I wanted him to verify if it was indeed by chance or is this according to Bach policy now? That certainly would justify the price increase.
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I played between 50 and 60 horns that day at the factory. This was "the one." I had two different renowned horn tweakers look at it after market and tell me that it didn't need a single bit of adjustment. I've now said that clearly three times. Nate obviously has low reading comprehension.
The fairly dramatic changes in manufacturing process and QC at Bach happened when Tedd Waggonner moved back into the factory post strike. Nothing new has changed recently, as far as I know.
Wasn't this question about matching horn with mouthpiece? If so, I will say that, even though this horn played great at the factory with the old mouthpiece that matched with my previous trumpet, I still needed to tweak the mouthpiece a bit (changed the blank, so different gap & altered weight distribution, etc).
Was there a Bach price increase? I honestly don't keep track of such things unless I am in the market for a new horn. Everybody is going to probably need to either increase their price or lower their quality due to the changing price (soaring cost of silver and especially gold) and quality of available materials (especially quality brass stock).
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing wrong with my reading, and I bet I comprehend more than most. However, thank you for finally confirming that you are the beneficiary of chance. I am indeed happy for you. I feel that many a good Bach is hiding behind a PVA, bore optimization and gap adjustment.
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Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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Just to put this whole thing in perspective to the op, we started our banter with this:
| PH wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | | 65strad wrote: | | PH wrote: | | Rim size, shape, cup depth, backbore, mouthpiece mass, etc. also often require tweaking when changing horns...not just gap. |
No doubt that other significant and legitimate factors exist, but I'm still amazed on how significant eye and "sound" opening the gap factor is even on it's own. So many things affect our success or lack of success in playing or selecting the right horn. For most of us, this simple (gap/sleeve factor) but rather significant component can greatly help us see/hear what we have in our hand with a bit more clarity than without.
Who wants to miss that "jewel in the rough" just because our prescription didn't allow us to hear it as it was meant to be heard? |
Yes, you get it. One should be able to take a good middle of the road piece like Bach 1-1/2C and play any reputable trumpet with the gap dialed in. |
And you would definitely be in the ballpark if you did that. However, we are past the point in history where trumpet players need to work with such blunt instruments. |
I completely understand your analogy. I wanted to find out if your perspective was limited to just the mouthpiece. I think you confirmed it by sharing that you tried 60 horns to find the one where the luck of the draw from the parts bin yielded a horn that did not need to be adjusted to spec. I think it's practically a miracle that someone grabbed the exact set of valve parts (including rubber and felt!) that resulted in perfect alignment. I have always said that if your job is to solder tubes, you should make the best joint possible and clean any solder residue before passing the part. So I'm glad to hear Bach has craftsmen that are doing just that. But, machining tolerances are a fact. Somebody has to measure and make adjustment to the valves. If they're doing that as well, than I shut my mouth. That's a time consuming process and in the past has not been cost effective.
I feel that instruments and mouthpieces need to be manufactured and fit precisely. After that, it's art.
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Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
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Retlaw
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | Just to put this whole thing in perspective to the op, we started our banter with this:
| PH wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | | 65strad wrote: | | PH wrote: | | Rim size, shape, cup depth, backbore, mouthpiece mass, etc. also often require tweaking when changing horns...not just gap. |
No doubt that other significant and legitimate factors exist, but I'm still amazed on how significant eye and "sound" opening the gap factor is even on it's own. So many things affect our success or lack of success in playing or selecting the right horn. For most of us, this simple (gap/sleeve factor) but rather significant component can greatly help us see/hear what we have in our hand with a bit more clarity than without.
Who wants to miss that "jewel in the rough" just because our prescription didn't allow us to hear it as it was meant to be heard? |
Yes, you get it. One should be able to take a good middle of the road piece like Bach 1-1/2C and play any reputable trumpet with the gap dialed in. |
And you would definitely be in the ballpark if you did that. However, we are past the point in history where trumpet players need to work with such blunt instruments. |
I completely understand your analogy. I wanted to find out if your perspective was limited to just the mouthpiece. I think you confirmed it by sharing that you tried 60 horns to find the one where the luck of the draw from the parts bin yielded a horn that did not need to be adjusted to spec. I think it's practically a miracle that someone grabbed the exact set of valve parts (including rubber and felt!) that resulted in perfect alignment. I have always said that if your job is to solder tubes, you should make the best joint possible and clean any solder residue before passing the part. So I'm glad to hear Bach has craftsmen that are doing just that. But, machining tolerances are a fact. Somebody has to measure and make adjustment to the valves. If they're doing that as well, than I shut my mouth. That's a time consuming process and in the past has not been cost effective.
I feel that instruments and mouthpieces need to be manufactured and fit precisely. After that, it's art. |
I don't think it was luck of the draw at all..... one good trumpet in a batch of sixty? PH is a respected and experienced musicians that took the time to find a horn that was just right for him. Another player might have chosen a different horn and so on throughout all sixty and been just as happy.
People have been tweaking for years but equally many players are blissfully happy and unaware of a need to alter there "store bought trumpet". The danger with creating a false impression that every Bach trumpet needs optimising and a pva sends out a completely wrong message to buyers of the fine trumpets. It also can create a sense of dissatisfaction and doubt which leads to horn Safaris and wasted money. But of course this is marketing speak and most of us have bought it at one time.
I was messing around with a cup mute the other day... at one point it felt like my horn was getting tight and stuffy. A little adjustment of my embouchure and hey presto..it opened up. Time to hit the shed but hope my brass valve guides come today......
Oh yeah..back on topic....I decided to try a Schilke mouthpiece on a Schilke trumpet...best trial and error I have ever made.
Walter
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"Relax and focus on becoming a trumpet player."
"Googlegurge" we can now all be intellectuals. |
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Not every horn needs after market tweaking. Every horn needs a mouthpiece.
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65strad
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Not every horn needs after market tweaking. Every horn needs a mouthpiece. |
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+1. Of course, one that is gapped properly for a given player to a given horn.
"Mr. Obvious"
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Tom
'08 Bach custom 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602
'10 Dillon Flugel Rose brass SN#912508 |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Walter
I'm not Bach bashing. They make fine instruments. The reality of the manufacturing process is that all mass produced trumpets need valves aligned, and most need solder and other debris cleaned out - no matter who makes them. This is not tweaking, this is restoring the horn to design specs. Most of the "good Bach, bad Bach" history is due to the degree these horns were out of spec. The vast majority of players are not discerning in this regard, or don't understand and therefore spend the hours days years necessary to learn the quirks of an otherwise great sounding instrument.
Dr. Karl Seivers has disclosed on the Bach forum that he sends all his horns to Reeves for alignment, and he has sleeves on his mouthpieces. He recommends everyone do the same.
If the manufacturer does not use non compressible material to control the valve travel, then after a few months of intense playing the valve travel parameter will be changed.
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Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
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