can horn age affect sound?

[eastside]

Well, I will admit that I am posting a lot so I can use marketplace. But at least I'm asking questions that I am indeed curious about.

Here's one: I've been playing a back strad for 32 years. It's visibly old, getting somewhat pitted inside. I had it checked out though and it isn't leaky or badly out of valve alignment.

But comparing it to the xeno and other horns it just feels really shifty and sounds dull and one-dimensional. I've always liked strads and I think this used to be a good horn. Any evidence that age of a horn can make it sound and feel mushy?

[RandyTX]

My Bach Bb is 32 year old also, I picked it out of a dozen or so new, and it plays better than any other I've tried in the interim other than a Mt. Vernon I know of that the owner won't part with.

That said, there's no way to know what's wrong with yours from what you've said. "I had it checked out" could mean anything from:

"... by a guy at Joe's Pawn and BBQ",

to

"... by Charlie Melk".

To answer your base question, I don't think age alone causes anything detrimental. Not being maintained well, leaky valves, repairs done incorrectly on it in the past, frankenhorn style modifications, etc. can though.

[shofarguy]

[cheiden]

There's all sorts of thing that can cause a well playing horn to turn bad. My teacher had his horn fall off a stand onto carpet and even though you couldn't see any sign of damage the horn went from great to lame. If you're sufficiently interested in preserving the horn take it to a highly regarded pro shop for a once over.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Kanstul 920 Picc
Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/2C underpart

[Capt.Kirk]

Yes brass changes with time and so does lead. So the material ages and the joint ages.
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[Brad361]

[Greenleaf]

[delano]

[Donjon]

The thing which will effect how well an old horn plays will be how well it seals (water keys, solder, valves, joints etc), and how well the valves work. Any changes in metal quality will be fairly insignificant compared with these.

Take a new Taylor, Monette of pro horn of choice and ruin the seal on the water key...it's going to play like a right old piece of crap now!
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[jazz_trpt]

Check the mouthpiece gap! Sometimes old horns end up having too small a gap as the receiver has expanded over years of use and is seating the mouthpiece in further than was originally designed.
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[DavesTrumpet]

[baboo]

I think the age of the horn doesn't matter as long as the waterkeys, valves and slides work good and the braces aren't loose.
I play a conn that is nearly 90 years old, and recently It started playing weirdly. The sound got a little thinner, and it was hard to control. I took it for repair ( corks, springs, waterkeys were fixed and one solder joint needed resoldering. It was also cleaned) Now it looks like new and plays like a new trumpet ( though I have to get used to the tighter blow )

[Manuel de los Campos]

[Wild Vine]

[Wild Vine]

[quikv6]

I recently acquired an original Paris pre-war F.Besson Brevete Bb trumpet from 1899. Yes, that was not a typo...1899. Man...what a horn! It's fantastic, and really has a great, unique feel to it. It actually leads me to believe that if brass actually "ages", it ages gracefully!
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-Chris
quik87gn@aol.com

[Capt.Kirk]

Brass depending on how it as alloyed can get brittle with age. Lead in the solder oxidizes as it does it changes the nature of the material and thus the nature of the joint. In fact it is not just lead on the surface either it oxidizes through all of the solder. This is a real problem with electronics because with time perfectly done solder joints can crack and open. As the lead oxidizes the resistance in the circuit also climbs to the point that voltage can drop.
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[dmb]

Especially noticable with older 110 volt trumpets.
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Dan Burton


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[DavesTrumpet]

[Capt.Kirk]

The inclusion of electronics was for your benefit not for people to act inflammatory or like 12 year olds! Unlike the trumpet world people in electronics prefer not to be ignorant of the materials in the construction of their devices and OEM look to lower warranty cost's. So again unlike the trumpet world research in electronics is on going and you can find actualy scientific research on the effects of oxidation on lead containing solder. Last I checked the trumpet world had no such published research on almsot anything let alone how the oxidation of lead inthe solder affects the condition of the joint with age. Many smart Brass Tech.'s have mentioned the possibility of age affecting the joints of the trumpet due to it's lea content but no actual research has been done or published in peer reviewed publications that I am aware of. Why? Well if their was such a thing as a peer reviewed Journal for technology as it relates to trumpets then their could be no secrets and lies and that would be the end to the oh so not sophisticated marketing and business models used in this industry! You can not have transparency and secrets.

So in order to learn abut how lead in solder reacts with age you have to actually seek out publications and scientific research on those materials in fields doing such research and writing about it!

Currently the level of general knowledge that is freely available to purchaser's and players is about as current and up to date as Alchemy compared to Chemistry!

I doubt any trumpets have 110-120V AC running through them more then likely they even electronic ones either use DC batteries or an AC to DC wall wort dropping down the voltage and changing it to simulated halfway clean DC. So even the 110 Trumpet comment is not only not likely to be accurate it is almost inflammatory.

Definitions of Ignorance-

: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

:Word ignorance root from " ignore" suggests a selective state of allowing or choosing to close his/her eyes to existing knowledge and information with the motivation of receiving personal profit or satisfaction.

:A self selected state of ignoring information or knowledge. Compiled of 2 words Ignore and ance as in memorance, a being in a state of memory. Close minded, bull headed, unaccomendating mindset.

I chose not to be ignorant so I seek out knowledge and do not mind if that info comes from outside the area I am interest in. So if I have to learn about brass allows on a non-trumpet sight or about how lead oxidizes so be it! If I waited for the trumpet industry to educate me I would be waiting for a long time for something not likely to ever come!

People that have studied trumpets and various modifications have noted this before me! The problem is no one was paying attention! In one theory on the proposed effects of cryotreating horns one theory is that it ages the brass or the joints simulating what time does to a good horn!Almost universally a fantastic horn that is in great mechanical condition plays better with time up until the parts wear out. Age does nothing for a poor performing horn.
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