Benge in the symphony?

so what · Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: Benge in the symphony?

Elden Benge was a symphonic player and played his trumpets there. Frank Kaderabek did, too. However, Benge trumpets later became more famous for big band and studio music it seems. I've been playing one since the late 60s.

Just curious, about this.
Does anyone play a Benge in a symphony now?
Which Benge?
Which Benge model is most likely to work in a symphonic setting?
If a symphonic player showed up with a Benge today, would his colleagues think that was OK or not? (I realize it depends on how it actually sounds.) If not, what has changed?
-Mark Walberg

ford850 · Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject:

As you said, I think it is very dependent on the horn. As far as Benge goes I believe as long as one blends with the section…..It’s been a while but the last symphony I played with I used my modified LB Benge (CG leadpipe and #2 bell) while the other fellow had a Conn VI something or other and we sounded just fine together.....for some reason we used Bb horns for the concert.
As for what would fit I think it depends on the sound the section has or wants to have. I am pretty sure a nice Benge 3X would not work if everyone else had 25H/229s but you may get by with a 2XML or MLP Bb. I thought back in Eldon's time the Bb was commonly used.
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ravel · Regular Member Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 79

Glantz and Toscanini didn't have a problem with the sound of a Benge.....

so what · Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject:

yourbrass · Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject:

I think Joe Lill has a Benge ad from the 60's in which the L.A. Symphony trumpet players all have Benges. A brilliant section, no doubt.

so what · Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject:

I think there are a few things that came into play (ahem) that took Benge out of the symphonic circles. I'm sure to get flack for writing some of them, but oh well.

In no particular order:

The French trumpet sound, which is biased toward the lighter mid-range overtones gave way to a more Teutonic sound which Vincent Bach pursued with his trumpets.

Vincent Bach made better business decisions than Eldon Benge and the Stradivarius brand gathered the most market share at the peak of our culture's use of the trumpet.

"Bach" and "Stradivarius", as brand names, inherited instant recognition and market traction, when compared to "Schilke" or "Benge".

As music awareness in our culture began to lose sophistication, as trained singing and piano playing, etc., became less ubiquitous, more players learned that they could be more accurate with Bach's designs than Benge's. Benge horns required a more secure connection between the horn and a developed musical sense in order to achieve the same accuracy. This last point meant that Benge horns fit into big band, jazz and pop music much better than the symphony.

As rock and roll took hold, Benge as a brand took off, but after only 10-15 years, the quality of Benge products began to fall. King and then UMI pressured the brand into a volume war against Conn-Selmer and the Benge brand lost.

Eldon and then Donald were both killed in Auto accidents.

Neither seem to have been great businessmen. They cared more for the instruments and/or a family legacy than for business.

My thoughts and observations,
Brian
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

Cadenza · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Jan 2009 Posts: 214

Bach Strads are still being made.

No good Benges are still being made.

If you want to have a section with the same horns and keep it that way, it's far easier to do so with horns that are still in production.

trumpaholic · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:01 am Post subject:

In the fifties, the Toronto Symphony Orchestra all played Benge horns.
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Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:11 am Post subject:

To answer the O/P's questions:

I have only seen one Benge used in a professional orchestra, and it was only because his main horn was in the shop. Like any other instrument, whether it would work in a particular section depends on how you sound, how the rest of the section sounds, and how much the section listens with their eyes. Contrary to what some people like to suggest, the first two factors are much more likely to be significant than the last.

gord-o · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:54 am Post subject:

I would bet that a lot of Benge Piccolo trumpets have been played in professional symphonies. I have played a few 5x Bb horns that I think would work for anything you would need.
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cjl · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:58 am Post subject:

tommy t. · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:22 am Post subject:

I used an LA Benge 3MLP C trumpet in two community orchestras in the Boston area. I chose the instrument because it still sounded like a modern symphonic trumpet even when played quite softly with the small orhestras. Very secure feeling with excellent response were two other characteristics that I appreciated. Huge problem -- rotten intonation, especially around the 5th partial. That was permanently cured by Jim Becker at Osmun with a replacement lead pipe and nifty, 3 layer reversed tuning slide. (I believe that he substituted a pipe from a Besson Bb.)

Tommy T.
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EdMann · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:33 am Post subject:

Rock n' Roll has nothing to do with orchestral playing or players, and RnR and Benge have anything do to with each other. UMI, however, does/did and you don't need to have more than a few lousy horns coming out to take a brand down. Bach quality has suffered little o'er the years, and I've always been hard pressed to find a bad Bach. And yes, the teutonic sound that was developed by players of early Bachs caught on, and people liked to hear it. No slam on Benge, but that became a popular orchestral sound for trpt.

Old Benges sound fine in orchestra, but they're OLD. The players aren't; they're younger and may not have been born while the LA, Burbank or Chicago Benges were being made, and not too many want to head into a hyper-pressurized orchestral world with an old horn. Bach built and kept the brand up. Benge didn't. And please, there's not a "connection" problem playing one fine horn or another.

ed

richardwy · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:56 am Post subject:

My teacher, Walt Laursen had three Burbanks: 3X, C, & D/Eb and played principal trumpet for the Pasadena Symphony. I don't know the years of his tenure but I would guess from 50's - early 70's.
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shofarguy · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:05 am Post subject:

Craig Swartz · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:48 am Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:47 am Post subject:

I love doing this to you guys! Read more carefully, and with your intellect, not emotions.

We are talking about the Symphony. I'm not a symphonic player. I'm a church soloist, with some pop and big band playing thrown in. My Benge did fine for that.

I'm not talking about individuals, but the entire trumpet market and how it relates to the history of music in american culture. Specifically, how the Benge brand fits into our history. Also, I am drawing on the opinions of certain iconic figures in the industry that have been involved with the Benge brand since the 1950s.

I am not presenting individual, unrelated assertions, but interrelated factors that brought about a result.

No informed person can avoid the conclusion that the level of musical ability of the average individual has been in decline for probably a hundred years. Simply tracing popular music will describe that clearly. A quick review of white male vocal superstars will suffice: Bing Crosby, Frank Sonatra, Elvis Presley, Paul McCartney, Phil Collins, Justin Beber. From the standpoint of vocal production, there is a shift away from fundamentals to style. We are now to the point that fundamentally good vocal production is most often a hindrance to one's popularity. That's decline.

Eldon's designs were based on a tool for musicians of an earlier time. They were very low volume and aimed at accomplished musicians. By the time King came along and pushed the brand into higher volume sales, the population had already registered its preference for Vincent Bach's designs. A trumpet that required an approach that only a small minority of musicians prefer (that of the player placing each note rather than the horn locking into them), had no chance of penetrating the symphonic world of Conn-Selmer.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

EdMann · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:12 am Post subject:

If you're talkin' about symphony, then why and where does Justin Bieber come into the dialogue? Peggy Lee had no range and flew off key regularly, 60 years ago.

Benge is gone in orchestras because... BENGE IS GONE. They're not here anymore. I've owned, and my brother has played Benge for 40 years, and they're wonderful horns, but the question regarded Benge in orchestras today. The decline of musicality began with the dinky dinky doo songs in the 40's, not the Biebers of the 10's.

And is Josh Groben a symptom of decline? Harry Connick? Carrie Underwood? Faith Hill? Jennifer Hudson? come on, man.

Steve A · Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:25 am Post subject:

This thread is a perfect example of why I usually avoid the "Horns" forum.

Edit: Nothing against the OP, or the question itself - just the rambling, baseless speculation that seems to follow any question of why certain instruments are used in an orchestra and not others...