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Steve A
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Joined: 26 May 2006
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| blanchard wrote: | Wow, fun thread.
| Steve A wrote: |
I have to get to a gig, or else I'd take more time explain why this is wrong, but I'd like to suggest that you take a few minutes to learn something about Bach before you try to continue this argument. Bach wasn't a significant innovator, or progressive figure - he was outdated during his own life, and was ridiculed by his composer sons for his old-fashioned style. |
And yet people study from his piano methods and orchestration books to this day.
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I didn't say he didn't write good music, or provide a good model for study, I said he wasn't a major figure of innovation at the time. Also, while I'm certainly not saying they don't exist, the existence of significant orchestration books written by J.S. Bach is news to me - maybe you can expand on that a bit? |
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blanchard
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Joined: 11 Sep 2005
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Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: |
I didn't say he didn't write good music, or provide a good model for study, I said he wasn't a major figure of innovation at the time. Also, while I'm certainly not saying they don't exist, the existence of significant orchestration books written by J.S. Bach is news to me - maybe you can expand on that a bit? |
Fair enough, but I don't see how that had anything to do with Shofar's comment which you were responding to.
My mistake on the orchestration comments. I meant to say composition. Basic by today's standards, but still the foundations for anyone who wants to understand harmony, counterpoint, and fugues.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| blanchard wrote: | | Steve A wrote: |
I didn't say he didn't write good music, or provide a good model for study, I said he wasn't a major figure of innovation at the time.
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Fair enough, but I don't see how that had anything to do with Shofar's comment which you were responding to.
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I was responding to this (the emphasis added is mine):
| shofarguy wrote: | | I did not ever say that J.S. Bach was popular in his day. That is not my argument. My argument is that he became know as the standard for musical excellence and innovation. Are you arguing with that? |
That seems like a pretty clear and direct answer to me (and was quoted in that post), but it's a long thread, and maybe that got overlooked? |
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blanchard
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Your argument was that he wasn't a major figure "at the time" while his was that he "became known" later. Both are true statements that don't contradict each other, but I'm being picky since the truth is, those arguments have nothing to do with the original question in this thread anyway. It was entertaining to see it travel that far, though.
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Steve A
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| blanchard wrote: | | Your argument was that he wasn't a major figure "at the time" while his was that he "became known" later. Both are true statements that don't contradict each other, but I'm being picky since the truth is, those arguments have nothing to do with the original question in this thread anyway. It was entertaining to see it travel that far, though. |
I don't agree with your synopses of either argument, and I think it's pretty obvious what I was and was not answering, but I agree this discussion has gone on some pretty bizarre and ridiculous tangents from discussing Benge trumpets. Interpret the source of those tangents as you will. |
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | | Venturi wrote: | | Another issue for us all to consider is the momentum that exists because of what "most people play." By using the same type of horn, a player removes at least one variable from his/her challenging job of fitting in with the section. Likewise, this may preempt certain issues with the conductor/director. Having the same horn as the others do can mean one less thing to worry about. So, once a certain make or model becomes "a standard" it can be perpetuated as such. |
CAREFUL! I've caught hell for writing that.  It's all, and only all, about the sound, don't you know. |
The job of the section players in any ensemble -- whether an orchestra or a wind band or a big band or a polka band -- is to blend with and match the SOUND of the principal or section leader. If using the same or similar equipment helps to give a more similar SOUND, then it's not about what "most people play," it is about the SOUND.
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NBO ~ HSSB ~ TNB |
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Venturi
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Agree! And if having similar equipment is perceived as one way to help achieve the same SOUND as that of the rest of the section, then it is about the SOUND and this reinforces "what most people play."
SOUND is always the goal. |
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Craig Swartz
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Did this thing finally morph back to the gist of OP???  |
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Cadenza
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Good point. I'll take a shot -----
Does anyone know whether the Chicago Symphony section was using a good number of Benges by the golden years of the "Elden period"?
If so, when and why did the transition to "other" horns begin to occur? Bud Herseth was/is a Bach aficianado and the Chicago is a mostly-Bach section. Did the focus on Strads begin with Bud . . . or was it already underway by the time he arrived? This sort of history isn't easy to find . . .
Some interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_Herseth |
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Crazy Finn
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Cadenza wrote: | Good point. I'll take a shot -----
Does anyone know whether the Chicago Symphony section was using a good number of Benges by the golden years of the "Elden period"?
If so, when and why did the transition to "other" horns begin to occur? Bud Herseth was/is a Bach aficianado and the Chicago is a mostly-Bach section. Did the focus on Strads begin with Bud . . . or was it already underway by the time he arrived? This sort of history isn't easy to find . . . |
I don't have a definitive answer, but I'm pretty sure the Bach trend in Chicago started with Bud. Here's a list of principals in Chicago:
| mstrpt wrote: | The Chicago Symphony
1912-32 Edward Llewellyn
1932-39 Eldon Benge
1939-41 Renold Schilke
1941-42/ 1945-48 Sidney Baker
1942-45 Gerald Huffman
1948-2001 Adolph (Bud) Herseth |
Llewellyn had his own model trumpet made by Holton.
Benge played a French Besson prior to building his own horns.
I don't know exactly what Schilke played prior to building his own. He worked at Holton in his youth. He was also student of Llewellyn while in Chicago prior to Llewellyn's death. He also worked on the Martin Committee.
Also, I'll just mention that Bud of course played a Bach C, but one of his main Bb Trumpets was a Schilke B3. He arrived in Chicago about the time that C trumpets were starting to become more present in symphonies (a trend that began in Boston with lighter Besson C's, I believe). Prior to that Bb trumpet were the common horn.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
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Olds Ambassador Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet |
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tommy t.
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Location: Big Thicket, Deep East Texas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Crazy Finn"] | Cadenza wrote: | | I don't know exactly what Schilke played prior to building his own. He worked at Holton in his youth. He was also student of Llewellyn while in Chicago prior to Llewellyn's death. He also worked on the Martin Committee. |
I believe that Schilke was the designer of the Holton B-51, which was considered to be the symphonic trumpet in the Holton line up in the '50s. My understanding is that Holton would not let him carry the B-51 design further, so he started making his own instruments in the second half of the '50.
Tommy T.
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Last edited by tommy t. on Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Capt.Kirk
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Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well if marketing has taught us anything about consumer's it is that they do not buy with their analytically mind! What you think top flight musicians are immune to the forces that drive sales????? Get over yourself!!!LOL
No one on this earth can convince me that the current Bach Strad is anything other then the very minimum of trumpet designs. Nothing on this earth in any market segment is so good that it can be cheapened to the point they have done and can ignore all advances in technology of design and still be the "best" after more then 50 years!
The Bach Strad is an old design grossly in need of refinement by the company that has been milking it's heavily copied French Besson design. It is so flawed that men make a decent living making them play well for Professional Musicians. Aftermarket leadpipes,tuning slides, caps, valve alignments and on and on have all cropped up to try and fix these "Pro" horns.
Yes, I think it fairly obvious I have a low opinion of most people that own a Bach and think it is the best thing to come along in over 50 years!! LOL I make no secret of this. Do not worry though I see the same thing in most area's. I was watching a guy put a collection of knifes in the $100-$350 ball park to the test. It never failed he got hate from owner's when their pet knife did not stand up to standardized testing for edge retention, sharpness, durability etc.........Their will always be people that no amount of fact's or testing will prove anything too their minds are made up they own it so it must be the best. Most people buy with their eye's and with their emotions. Hitler said it best paraphrasing " If you going to tell a lie tell a huge or grand lie, tell it often, tell it with conviction and sooner or latter it will pass into being as fact!" That's from Mein Kampf........His propaganda man was a genius when it came to marketing and he based his stuff on an marketing idea's written by an American. They where untested until the 1950's by big business but once they put them to work boy did they work! I am a student of history and all things marketing since they are what makes this world go round!
Do you think Orchestra performer's where Tux's especially with tails because they are the most comfortable clothes to perform in under hot lights, because they improve how they sound or is it form some other reason?Notice that the women are all dressed differently only the men seem to all wear the same thing? Why do all the trumpet players in my local Orchestra all play silver trumpets? None of the French horns are silver or nickel but one is gold plated. Trombones are all brass and one is even raw brass and tarnished to the point that it is very dark.In fact the only brass in the entire orchestra that is silver is the trumpets? Must be because silver makes the trumpet sound better? LOL
I do not think most trumpet players make their purchases with sound mechanical or scientific facts as the basis of their trumpet purchase. A lot of them are very shallow and afraid they will stand out and not blend in. I have heard this too many times on this forum by people " You will not get gig's is you do not have a Bach." " You will not blend in a section if you do not have a Bach." " If the horn looks different you will draw negative attention from the director." and on and on!! It amazes me that top professional can somehow manage to play at top form on non-Bach and even with trumpets devoid of bling like shiny finish's be it lacquer , silver or gold. Some how they manage to play on Harelsons, FLip Oaks, Kanstul's,LeBlanc's, Taylors etc... and sound fantastic in spite of not playing on a Bach. It is all the Pro's that are not household names that seem to be required to play Bach's in order to fit in with the rest of their "Pro" peer's it seems to stop being true once one get's past a certain level or if you do not tell anyone! LOL
I have said it before this is more about perception then it is performance. In fact go over to Trumpet Master and ask about any of the Pro Model horns MF played while with Holton. To listen to them tell it they are all junk and not at all up to modern Pro standards. On the other hand Bach Strad with is now an ancient design that has not been improved upon on in over 50 year or more is still some how up to pro standards of this modern day and age!!!LOL Other then restoring the Strad's leadpipe length to it's longer original format and cheapening the design Selmer has not done anything to improve the design. So you have a design heavily copied from a French design that is just barely under 100 years old something like 80 or 85 years old. That is not progress when you stand still. The Bach design is over 50 years old and has been watered down. Perception not fact is what is driving this bus!
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irith
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Capt.Kirk wrote: | | No one on this earth can convince me that the current Bach Strad is anything other then the very minimum of trumpet designs. |
Well that's true. Also not a great way to look at things.
| Capt.Kirk wrote: | | Yes, I think it fairly obvious I have a low opinion of most people that own a Bach. |
It's silly to lower your opinion of someone because they play a certain brand. You haven't played their horn; it could be the greatest horn ever and yet you'd still think them foolish.
I am well aware that your caveat is likely that you are referring to "yellow brass standard weight 37 bell 25 leadpipe ML bore", but my comment stands.
Regardless what you say of Bachs and similarly designed trumpets (as far as specs go, since you probably have played almost none of them), orchestral/classical pros play them overwhelmingly. If other things were so superior, more people would be playing them by now - but somehow the people winning and keeping jobs are playing on relatively standard things, and they sound excellent. Either they are practicing instead of worrying about their equipment (true), or they have the equipment that's giving them the right sound (also true).
Let's face it, Kirk. Most people don't play large bore bronze 72 bells with 43 leadpipes for a reason - they're not you. Just because you don't like the most popular trumpet in the US today doesn't mean it's not popular for a reason beyond fashion.
As per the finishes, clearly every instrument has trends. The thinking about finish effecting the sound is also much less prevalent among trumpet players than horn or trombone players. I would hazard to say that trombonists are the biggest slaves to fashion in the brass section. I almost invariably see lacquer/raw trombones. I do not recall the last time I saw a professional trombonist (classical especially) playing a silver instrument.
Trumpet players choose silver more because they like how it looks (what a crime!) and because it's one of the more durable finishes. I would say that most of us believe finish is mostly looks - so why criminalize people for choosing based on that? Past high school, no one is looked down upon for a finish, unless it's a ridiculous red or green or something.
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Trumpets.
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dmb
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Capt.Kirk wrote: |
Yes, I think it fairly obvious I have a low opinion of most people that own a Bach ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
For whatever reason, John, I tried to read your long winded Bach bashing post. I got as far as the part I quoted above.
I know that nothing I say will keep you from continuing your non-stop war against Conn/Selmer (and pretty much all domestic, mass produced OEM, etc, etc, adnauseum), but I do want to say that I'm sure that all of us who actually play the trumpet see things quite differently than you ever will.
To everyone else, sorry for the interuption.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Dan Burton
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yourbrass
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, to get back to the discussion:
I may be completely wrong, but I kept hearing the story that Mr. Herseth played a large-bore Bb Benge for much of his career. At the time he became principal at CSO, Bb's were very common in symphony orchestras. |
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Ed Kennedy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:05 am Post subject: Orchestral Benge |
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| When I was in San Francisco (1970-72) the third trumpet player (whose name escapes me) in the symphony played Benges. The 1st (my teacher, Don Reinberg) and 2nd played Bachs and had no problem with the Benge in the section. |
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| dmb wrote: | | Capt.Kirk wrote: |
Yes, I think it fairly obvious I have a low opinion of most people that own a Bach ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
For whatever reason, John, I tried to read your long winded Bach bashing post. I got as far as the part I quoted above.
I know that nothing I say will keep you from continuing your non-stop war against Conn/Selmer (and pretty much all domestic, mass produced OEM, etc, etc, adnauseum), but I do want to say that I'm sure that all of us who actually play the trumpet see things quite differently than you ever will.
To everyone else, sorry for the interuption.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming. |
Great post!
John writes of the Bach Strad, a "heavily copied French Besson design"? Then what the hell is a Benge, John? Gee, you show your ignorance everytime you post around here.
Back to the discussion. Timofei Dokshizer played a Benge 3X+ MLP Benge for his last twenty something years in the Bolshoi Theatre Orch. He tried Bachs (played one for a while) and didn't like them.
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Dave M
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rockford
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Benge was fastidious in recreating the French besson design features. Bach also used the Besson as his starting point. They didn't stop there though. Lots of innovation in both brands is evident. Like it or not the Bach 37 ml is the instrument all others are compared to today. All too often players project their own deficiencies on the instruments they play. Things are standard for good reason. They work best for most people. I think it's great that we have all the options available on trumpets today. In experimenting around that ml 37 has proven to be a good place to start.
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Bill Siegfried
NY and Mt. Vernon Bach Bb trumpets and cornets. Bach Artisan C, Bach C cornet, Schilke G, Yamaha Eb/D, piccolo A/Bb, flugelhorn, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Benz-Genz amps. |
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the good captain could hold a trumpet recital, on his Frankenhorn 9000 or whatever he holds "worthy", and invite a few folks, such as those listed here:
http://www.bachbrass.com/artists/trumpet.php
Then we could find out whether they do or do not have an equally placed opinion of him.
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DavesTrumpet
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