Overcoming resistance in open and tight horns.

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5075

I am biased towards open horn and large bore horns. Having played Euphonium and Tuba in middle school and H.S. just as much as trumpet I think that people usualy make too much about bore size and an open blow. Their are some people that just can not adapt for what ever reason and for them I think it makes sense. Take AFP he went through plenty of horns before having one custom built to fit him. He tried hard to adapt to what was on the shelf in mass produced horns. So I would never take issue with him or anyone else that really gave a variety of horns a try.

What I hate is when people for no reason at all other then an untested opinion decide that they can not use what ever take you pick M bore, XL bore, 43 pipe, 6 pipe you name it. IF all they ever play is .459/.460 Bach 37 bell/25 pipe clones then how do they know. Even worse they buy a horn that is kind of cool like a .470 Flip Oaks Celebration then play it 5-6 times and run back to their other horn proclaiming they can not play a .470 bore horn. Even worse they then bad mouth all other .470 bore horns even if they never played more then one .470 bore horn etc.....You can insert any bore or leadpipe in place of the .470 example above.

I think that at some point you have to go out on a limb and try some different things. IT might be one leadpipe larger and one smaller then what your horn came with or it might be a new horn............The thing is few of us can buy clothes off the rack and look like the models that are in the add's and almost everyone looks best in hand fitted clothes. I think the same is true of overly compromised mass produced trumpets. At some point you have to alter the horn or by one that is designed different to old faithful in order to advance any further. Sometimes it takes a while to get used to a new horn but if you give up too soon on it well you never truly find out if the new tool was in fact a better fit. Why? You can not pour fresh water into a glass that is already full with stale water. You have to first empty out the glass before you can refill it will fresh clean water. Sometimes a better horn exposes your weakness's a lot more initially fix those and suddenly that new horn really sings. Some designs cover up some problems better then other's but they do so at a price!

I think the mission should dictate the design of the horn and the buyer should tweak it to make it their own! This is why I do not think their is a bad design when it comes to light weight or heavy weight or open blow or resistance up front etc........Their is room for them all. I think their are some practices that stupid and old in their line of thought. For instance I think it is absolutely stupid to do horns in extremes of all the parts being light weight or standard weight or heavy weight that is out dated stupid thinking based more on marketing then on sound design principals. The weight of the parts should be mixed and matched to accomplish a given mission or specific performance characteristic. Adjectives,Adverbs and such for the description of horn characteristics should be standardized so intelligent conversation and comparisons can be made. Every horn should be required to be pinned down or clearly described so as to establish for what purpose besides making more sales it was designed and built because every horn should have a primary goal/need it was designed to meet. Nothing worse then vague garbage description on OEM sites of the horns they build.

All OEM should offer to replace the leadpipe free of charge with another on any new horn that is under 18 months old. This way you are not forced to custom order a horn just to get a 72 bell with anything other then the 25 pipe for instance. It wont happen and we going to lose the domestic horn industry because they stupid and wont change. When you look at the cost of aftermarket leadpipe and instalation and down time it would make for a huge selling point that few people would take advanatage of the first 18 months they own the horn. I did not chose 18 months at random either. This would give people an entire year to play the horn as the OEM made it to decide if they needed a larger or smaller leadpipe. Imagine being able to get a 6 pipe or 43 pipe on your Bach Strad at no additional cost.
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RandyTX · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject:

Retlaw · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:55 am Post subject:

I like the comment about focusing on the sound and not the resistance. Rich...helpful to my situation.

The reason I started the thread was that I have had two experiences that sort of threw me a bit. I traded a horn for a LR Eclipse (big open blow)..it had a most wonderful sound and was very well built. I played it on and off for several weeks but really struggled with endurance....chops just wore out. I tried different mouthpieces and even got a couple of smaller lead pipes (they are interchangeable on the Eclipse) from Leigh who was most helpful. That didn't work so I got him to put on a MR bell which he did for a very reasonable cost ...all silver plated and immaculate. Some improvement but still couldn't get over the endurance problem.... The only thing I didn't do was play the horn exclusively for an extended period. I have since sold the horn and moved on.

Fast forward...I have played my Schilke S32 for many months and right from the start it felt great...with the 15a4a mouthpiece my upper register has grown and frankly the horn is just really easy to play. I love the Schilke build, sound and the way it plays so on that basis and after selling a couple of horns I bought a B6. I wanted a B series horn to compliment the S32... A little more resistance and the sound of a copper bell. First blow confirmed that the horn would be different enough to add something.... I played it a lot the first day and the next used it for an entire gig. The charts were challenging.... even with my S32 in rehearsals it was chop busting. The horn worked well and the extra edge in the sound was just what I was looking for....slightly easier to slide around as well. The gig went well and the next day I couldn't wait to play it again and at that point started to become more aware of the increased pressure on my chops....played it Sunday morning service...magnificent sound in the big acoustic. With tired chops I went back home to the S32 and it was easy blowing. Well yesterday I had a rare complete days rest ...today is a fresh start and I am determined to get this horn working...it plays and sounds great and will be a wonderful asset.....

I suppose my reaction has been knee jerk and time will tell....the advise and encouragement is helpful. I noted that Michael mentioned acclimating over a period of a month...early days for me on this horn. Putting the work will yield big rewards I am sure but the challenge got me thinking and I could imagine a lot of players giving up quite quickly...I won't do that. I will learn to relax and back off the over blowing.

Walter
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richardwy · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:59 am Post subject:

johnw2738 · New Member Joined: 03 Apr 2012 Posts: 1

Really this is great, now i can manage it
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Retlaw · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:48 am Post subject:

afp · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:24 am Post subject:

I thought about starting a new thread, but my question is along similar lines. Yesterday evening I compared my Bravura to a Bach ML 72/43 and my old ( but no longer mine) Getzen 700 with a Reeves PVA. I sounded best on the Bravura but liked the sound on the 72 very much. The Getzen sounded bright but it's tighter resistance felt better to me. DHC easily popped out on the Getzen. My teacher, a 30+ year pro, told me the Getzen would only feel good for a little while then it would start to back up on me.

Does anyone agree or disagree with my teacher, and why?
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Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5075

I think that trying to "over come" resistance is the wrong way of thinking about it and is very Western. I think that a horn and the player have a relationship. Being male I think of a horn in much the same way I do a relationship with a woman. Only a cave man would try to club the woman over the head and drag her back to his cave and no man of integrity and honor would seek to over come a woman with force or manipulation. I think you have to learn to work with the horn not force your will upon it.

So I would say you get used to what ever the horn does be it tight, open or if it has resistance up front etc.......If you can not get used to it and the horn and you can not work together you end that relationship. So you would either go looking for another horn or modify that horn be it a different leadpipe, a different shape or bore tuning slide or moving the bracing around etc?!?!?!?! This is true of car's, swords, hand guns, trumpets and most things we interact with........

If a horn fills like it is backing up on me I do not keep feeding it more air I back off and focus on my aperture until I can put that horn down and pick up another one. LOL Seriously though between leadpipe swaps, different tuning slide shapes and bore sizes and moving the bracing around their is no reason any horn you own can not be made to fit you better!
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afp · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject:

So why wouldn't just backing off be the answer for playing a tight horn?
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Wild Thing Trumpet
Carol Brass CTR 5000L-YLS Trumpet
Carol Brass Picc
Wild Thing Flugel

Wedge Custom 5-12 DCG #25 Throat

Retlaw · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:26 pm Post subject:

afp · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject:

Walter,

You are probably right. This is a very timely subject for me, as I am about to get a backup horn. I don't have one and I should. I am trying to match my Bravura but at much less cost. Based on my experience with Carol Brass, I plan to get a standard weight trumpet with their standard leadpipe and their large taper bell. This would be like a Bach 72/25 with just a little more open blow. That would make it like my Bravura at 1/3 the cost.
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Wild Thing Trumpet
Carol Brass CTR 5000L-YLS Trumpet
Carol Brass Picc
Wild Thing Flugel

Wedge Custom 5-12 DCG #25 Throat

p76 · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject:

If the horn is backing up you must be overblowing - if you listen for where the horn resonates best, that's a guide to how to feed the air in.

Easier said than done when in the middle of a concert band, of course.

It's all about supporting the horn with airflow, rather than blowing harder - there is a difference, but it can be hard to manage to do it regularly.

Certainly if you have horns of varying resistance / bores, it pays to play across your "quiver" often, so that the body gets used to the differing requirements of each horn.

Cheers,
Roger
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C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Besson 723, Olds Ambassador.
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Mpc. - Monette B2, Curry 1.25BBC, Wick 4FL

shofarguy · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject:

VetPsychWars · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject:

I have been watching this thread with interest, mostly because I have questions, and not answers.

I have various Buescher horns (gasp! shock!) that have the exact same bore size but play from pretty tight to as big as Brian's Wild Thing (it just does, deal with it).

It seems like they all pretty much can be accommodated with the mouthpiece I'm using. At one time it seemed like a tighter backbore worked better with the bigger-playing horn but the more I learn to play better, the less difference it seems to make.

It makes me think that I am just not practiced enough to play these horns and I need to learn more.

Tom
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p76 · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject:

Brian, you're absolutely right - as one becomes a better player, the realisation dawns that it's not really about the horn, it's about you and how you put air into and move it about the horn. Therefore, you should be able to work with whatever equipment you have available.

Having stated that, obviously certain setups work better for each individual person, in that they don't have to work as hard to get what they want from the horn - hence differing preferences for open or tight blows. It's probably one reason why it's good for students to actually start on a student horn, as they are (or should be) very middle of the road in terms of resistance, so it makes it easier to transition when a better player - my parents bought me very early in my trumpet life a pro instrument with an open blow / reverse leadpipe (YTR634), which has meant a long acclimatization to enable me to play setups with more resistance (the whole muscle memory thing I mentioned a while back in this thread).

And, like any true critic, and as you stated Brian, one should be able to ascertain whether a horn is good or not, despite it not being a setup preferable to you (the bigger danger IMHO is that you play a horn that is the setup you prefer and think it better than it actually is, because you can get a good blow first up).

I think it's a true-ish generalization that the more professional (as in earning $$$) one is on the horn, the more you can do everything with just the one instrument - and a few different mpcs.

Cheers,
Roger
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Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Yamaha YTR732, Olds Super, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Besson 723, Olds Ambassador.
Flugel - Weril Regium II.
Mpc. - Monette B2, Curry 1.25BBC, Wick 4FL

laurent · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject:

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5075

It is AFP.......That is why I put "LOL" after talking about putting it down for another horn......The proper thing to do is to back off and focus on your aperture. It can be hard to do though when you are not used to that or you get caught up in the moment.

I have an old Holton Pea Shooter that in spite it's valves being worn out sounds fantastic and plays fantastic. I have to use 3in1 oil on it. The thing is when I try to step on the gas it really starts feeling tight and the resistance feels like it is moving closer and closer to my chops. So when I play that horn I have to remind myself to "back off". I would never go to the VFW and take that horn with me because I would not feel comfortable with it. Nothing wrong with the horn other then it does not match my approach to playing the trumpet. I never said my approach was the best or only way! LOL

So nothing wrong with backing off on a horn as that is the right thing to do. If I played that horn every day sooner or latter I would get used to it and prob. would not even notice that anymore. I too though like to be comfortable if I can so I avoid horns generally that back up. I bought that horn off Ebay with out being able to play test it.

I have a very dry sense of humor. I am sorry that is not always clear when I am joking. Generally if I put "LOL" after a sentence it means I was joking about something in it.
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laurent · Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject:

Well, I fully agree with afp then!

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Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
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Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD.

afp · Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:11 am Post subject:

Well then I fully agree with everyone..........

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Wild Thing Trumpet
Carol Brass CTR 5000L-YLS Trumpet
Carol Brass Picc
Wild Thing Flugel

Wedge Custom 5-12 DCG #25 Throat

fredo · Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject:

Mark Curry wrote : I can tell you it's much harder tapering down to the smaller bore size again. It was much easier to expand into the extra large horns BUT I felt that I had to work harder to maintain my resonance (if that make any sense).

On the smaller horns I had to find my resonance First in order to play the darn thing or the sound would cut out. No amount of force (read pressure) would rectify this situation.

I've just bought a Carol only by curiosity and it's tighter than my U 3/7.

I try to acclimate to it and find my resonance first helped to me understand how to blow it (after a few minutes over blowing it)

This thread is very helpful for me also and acclimation to horns we do not choose for there comfort seems to learn me how to play better, more efficient and relaxed.
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