| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 4413
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | | It really doesn't matter what method you use for transposing, as long as it works for you. The point is that if you try to explain your method to somebody else, saying "read it as bass clef" has a particular meaning (i.e., read the music as if the clef were replaced) which is two semitones lower than "read it as if you are playing a bass clef euphonium part." Transpose however you want, but if you want people to understand what you are talking about, don't describe this method as "read it as bass clef." |
Fair enough. I suppose I understood what was meant since I do it that way as well.
I teach all those crazy band instruments, so I read all kinds of parts (even flute) on trumpet - although sometimes I actually play them on the right instrument. It's a job that gives you lots of opportunities for transposing music in that's not too difficult.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Olds Ambassador Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nonsense Eliminator wrote: |
The point is that if you try to explain your method to somebody else, saying "read it as bass clef" has a particular meaning (i.e., read the music as if the clef were replaced) which is two semitones lower than "read it as if you are playing a bass clef euphonium part." Transpose however you want, but if you want people to understand what you are talking about, don't describe this method as "read it as bass clef." |
I don't know what you are getting at. Maybe because I'm not aware of transposed music written in bass clef. I agree that "read it as bass clef" has a particular meaning: here's a bass clef part, read it.
To the OP: you are correct. 1st space F on the alto sax part, when converted to bass clef, is an Ab. You would play an Ab on your trumpet which of course is a 1st valve Bb for your transposing instrument.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 4254
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | | The point is that if you try to explain your method to somebody else, saying "read it as bass clef" has a particular meaning (i.e., read the music as if the clef were replaced) which is two semitones lower than "read it as if you are playing a bass clef euphonium part." Transpose however you want, but if you want people to understand what you are talking about, don't describe this method as "read it as bass clef." |
I don't know what you are getting at. Maybe because I'm not aware of transposed music written in bass clef. I agree that "read it as bass clef" has a particular meaning: here's a bass clef part, read it. |
Think about this from the perspective of somebody who doesn't play a bass clef brass instrument. First space of the bass clef is A, add three flats makes it A flat, the fingering for A flat on the trumpet is 2-3. In treble clef that's an F, so that transposition is up a minor third.
What you are doing is reading bass clef euphonium fingerings, so you are looking at that same A flat and thinking that the fingering is 1. To you or somebody else who is fluent with bass clef euphonium fingerings, I suppose this might make sense. But for somebody who isn't fluent with those fingerings, it is obviously not the same as "read it as bass clef." It is "read it as bass clef and employ a whole other set of fingerings."
For the record, the horn often plays in bass clef in a variety of transpositions, and there are a even few passages here and there where trumpet parts have a few notes written in the bass clef. Obviously, in those cases, the fingerings employed are the same as in treble clef.
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO ~ HSSB ~ TNB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
With all due respect, Richard, you are acting like I said "pretend it's a trumpet part written in bass clef". If your concert master plays an A for you to tune your Bb trumpet, what note do you play? Might be a B on your trumpet, but it's still an A. C'mon, I teach 4th & 5th graders this stuff. You play a transposing instrument. It's a given that you have to play up a note to play in unison with the orchestra/band etc . . .
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 4254
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | With all due respect, Richard, you are acting like I said "pretend it's a trumpet part written in bass clef". If your concert master plays an A for you to tune your Bb trumpet, what note do you play? Might be a B on your trumpet, but it's still an A. C'mon, I teach 4th & 5th graders this stuff. You play a transposing instrument. It's a given that you have to play up a note to play in unison with the orchestra/band etc . . . |
"Read it as bass clef."
How is anybody supposed to read that and know to use different fingerings in the bass clef?
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO ~ HSSB ~ TNB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JohnnyChemo
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2002
Posts: 49
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Personally, I tend to think of it as "bass clef up a step" and it seems to get me there. Yes, add three flats yada yada. I teach MS & HS band, play along with Eb saxes and bass clef instruments and read it the same way (basically).
The one that always kills me is French horn transposition though... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sorry Richard, I was banned for a week.
One doesn't use different fingerings. Bass clef 4th space is G. G on trumpet is A. It is not a trumpet part.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 4254
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | Sorry Richard, I was banned for a week.
One doesn't use different fingerings. Bass clef 4th space is G. G on trumpet is A. It is not a trumpet part. |
You're right. It is a saxophone part. So why are you talking about euphonium fingerings?
So let's revise the question I asked that you ignored:
"Read it as bass clef."
How is anybody supposed read that and know to use euphonium fingerings on their trumpet to play a saxophone part?
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO ~ HSSB ~ TNB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Trumpet and euphonium use the same fingerings. They both sound a Bb as the lowest partial with no valves depressed.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 4254
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | Trumpet and euphonium use the same fingerings. They both sound a Bb as the lowest partial with no valves depressed. |
By this reasoning, B flat trumpet and C trumpet do not use the same fingerings. Good luck with that.
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO ~ HSSB ~ TNB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
C trumpet is a non transposing instrument (to concert pitch). If you are reading a bass clef part with C trumpet, I hope you would use CC tuba fingerings . . .
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ArtofBrass
Regular Member
Joined: 05 Sep 2009
Posts: 24
Location: In the woodshed.
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
C trumpet transposes an octave above it's actual overtone series as a consequence of the tromba loosing 4 feet of tubing in it's transition to trompette.
All trumpets are transposing instruments. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
2-5-1
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1382
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Q:If I'm reading an alto part to Besame Mucho in the key of g on a trumpet, what's my transposition?
A:Why are you playing Besame Mucho??
_________________
www.mikesailorsmusic.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 1108
Location: Austin, by way of Germany and Hawaii
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 2-5-1 wrote: | Q:If I'm reading an alto part to Besame Mucho in the key of g on a trumpet, what's my transposition?
A:Why are you playing Besame Mucho?? |
Most excellent!
_________________
You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
Schilke B7
Martin Committee (1956)
Connstellation 38B (1959)
Hans Hoyer G10 French Horn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In your case, it would be the key of "gee" . . .
Ain't no transposition gonna save you.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Spike
New Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Posts: 10
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | A minor 3rd higher is a higher note. |
True |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nonsense Eliminator
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 4254
Location: Toronto
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crzytptman wrote: | | C trumpet is a non transposing instrument (to concert pitch). If you are reading a bass clef part with C trumpet, I hope you would use CC tuba fingerings . . . |
Where did I say anything about bass clef?
You said, "Trumpet and euphonium use the same fingerings. They both sound a Bb as the lowest partial with no valves depressed." By this reasoning, C trumpet and B flat trumpet do not use the same fingerings, because they do not sound the same note with no valves depressed.
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO ~ HSSB ~ TNB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8249
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Richard, there's not enough room in your box for me to join you!
You're just trolling on and on about a very simple thing that many many players do all the time. How do you read the alto sax part? Add 3 flats and read it as bass clef. Just like if you took piano music and played the bass clef part.
As far as I know, all the trumpets utilize the same fingering, but will sound different pitches depending on the key they are pitched in.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hankinsmd
Regular Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Good stuff, you guys.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
