“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak-
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 1105 Location: Austin, by way of Germany and Hawaii
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject:
Brian Moon wrote:
Irving wrote:
Mason Jones, famous first horn with the Philly orchestra apparently said, " Never look at the conductor. He doesn't know what he is doing." No truer words have ever been spoken.
Mason was talking about his own conductiong, but not entirely. He was actually quite good.
Muti had a clear beat but the music was always best when he conducted orchestras I played in.
Had no problem following Bernstein either.
Mehta was a turd in a punch bowl.
Brian, your quick take on Loren Maazel's communication from the podium, please? _________________ You can't blow it if you haven't lived it.
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
Schilke B7
Martin Committee (1956)
Connstellation 38B (1959)
Hans Hoyer G10 French Horn
Mason Jones, famous first horn with the Philly orchestra apparently said, " Never look at the conductor. He doesn't know what he is doing." No truer words have ever been spoken.
Mason was talking about his own conductiong, but not entirely. He was actually quite good.
Muti had a clear beat but the music was always best when he conducted orchestras I played in.
Had no problem following Bernstein either.
Mehta was a turd in a punch bowl.
Brian, your quick take on Loren Maazel's communication from the podium, please?
“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak-
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 5414 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:04 am Post subject:
rockford wrote:
I love it when conductors screw up. Helps keep them at bay for at least a couple days.
Only when they either admit their mistake (almost never) or if the conductor even realizes that he/she was really the problem (again, almost never).
It is so important that each player maintain the pulse internally, try to keep it connected within the section and find some other vital part to pair with when they can. Percussion, especially our tympanist is where we usually turn for support. I can think of a few tunes we've done over the years where we've learned never to rely on the guy with the stick. Barber Violin Concerto, 3rd Mvt near the last page turn and Adams "Short Ride..." always come to mind first.
So much is amazingly simple when a true master is on the podium, terrorizing when said person is more concerned with image than music. The one thing I took away from multiple conducting workshops under Fredrick Fennell was his statement that the conductor's primary job is to "keep the beat". It was always a treat to perform Lincolnshire Posy, especially the "Rufford Park Poachers" movement under him- simple to count, easy to follow, and he made keeping the beat interesting enough that the musicians wanted to watch. There are others as good as he or better, many, many more who studied all the gestures much more than the score, however.
Nonsense Eliminator wrote:
I think it's true that "never" looking at the conductor is probably not good advice for most people -- although in an orchestra, if you are a section player and have a reliable principal to follow, you can probably go weeks at a time without looking up.
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 20 Location: Orange County, California
Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject:
I cannot say that I have played for the conductors mentioned here, but my opinion is there are two parts to being a conductor, the first of which is gving the orchestra the musical concept for the piece to be performed. This means they have studied the score, have an actual intellectual concept of what the piece is about and then articulate it to the musicians performing it.
The idea is to give a common approach which can be honored by the musicians at the rehearsal.
The second is, at the performance, assisting with lending security to performers entrances. Tempo, volume and other issues should already have been addressed at rehearsal and absorbed by the performers. At the performance, the conductor's role, in my opinion, is to get out of the way and promote the players performance.
What is that saying, the rehearsal is for the conductor and the performance is for the musicians? _________________ John M. Beringer, Jr.
Bach 229 LC (Malone Leadpipe); Bach Bb 180S37; Eastman D/Eb. Bush WX-S Mouthpiece
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 5414 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject:
Jm, a lot of what you're saying is determined by the experience and quality of the musicians and conductor. Many of us already have a good grasp of style, phrasing, color, dynamic and part responsibility for various composers or individual works we've played numerous times under varying conditions. In cases such as these, it is intelligent for the conductor not to get in the way.
One of the most "fascinating" performances I ever witnessed was by Chicago, on tour in Ames, IA. Tickets could be had with a dinner among orchestra personnel ahead of the performance. During that time I asked those at the table about the hall and the answer was "it'll be fine". I then asked about the conductor for the evening and was queried: "who is it?" and "oh, he'll be fine". Obviously the first time the group and conductor met was on the stage. The conductor was very animated (Beethoven 5 opened, followed by 6 after intermission) and after he got into the first violin stand members faces for the 5th time or so making wild shaking gestures, they made no bones that they were not watching him any longer, nearly turning away when he'd come their way. I cannot remember who was concertmaster in rotation for the evening but from that point on, the orchestra followed him, not CT on the podium. The end result was a good performance but the conductor did little to actually enhance it. Pity.
Interestingly enough, the Deutsche Grammophon bio for this conductor runs out in 2007, although I imagine he's still out there conducting in Europe.
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 20 Location: Orange County, California
Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:
Craig: Great post. I was recently doing a rehearsal with St. Clare of the Pacific Symphony in Orange County and watched as he discussed his vision of the piece, and then just let the orchestra go. Section leaders were free to move their own sections and there was a fantasic performance from the orchestra. (Pictures at an Exhibition)
By the way, I do agree with what you said that one of the issues is the background of orchestra members. With Chicago, since they have performed the works dozens of times, basically shoting a start gun would work; for a college orchestra, not so much.
When I perform, my preference is a conductor that lets me perform, helps with the security of an entrance perhaps, and then he can perform for the audience as much as he wants. _________________ John M. Beringer, Jr.
Bach 229 LC (Malone Leadpipe); Bach Bb 180S37; Eastman D/Eb. Bush WX-S Mouthpiece
Quite entertaining. Strauss is one of my Favourites.
Also, someone told me a story about Strauss conducting one of his own pieces and mid-performance checking his stop watch only to realise he's running late for a poker match so suddenly speeds up quite dramatically... Not sure how true it is, but I've heard there is video footage of it.
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