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Pete Anderson
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 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| How does this thread keep happening every month or so? |
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Crazy Finn
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete Anderson wrote: | | How does this thread keep happening every month or so? |
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114615
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crzytptman
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Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8164
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Darryl, you're like one of those shady lawyers. You will not be pinned down! misdirection and attacking the character of your "opponent", rather than deal with the facts.
Of all these things you say you've debunked, I want to know what factual evidence you rely on. If you play fff quadruple high C and claim high note fairies make it possible, I want to see one. Factual evidence.
And, it would be nice if you would explain what's happening here:
| Quote: | Scenario 1:
A perfectly square stone with sides of 1" each, weighing 4 ounces is hit with a stream of water from a 1" garden hose attached to a typical city water supply that provides 35 pounds per square inch of pressure. The hose end is held very close to the stone. As the water stream is of one inch diameter, all of the water contacts the stone, and since the stone is square in shape, all the force of the water contacts the stone at a 90 degree angle to the side of the stone, so there are no cosines to deal with. When the 1" thick water stream hits the stone, the force of static friction between the stone and the ground is overcome and the stone begins to move, but very slowly, because the kinetic friction is also acting on the stone and keeping it from accelerating any more.
Scenario 2:
The same thing is done a second time, except this time, a nozzle is placed on that same hose so the water stream is now concentrated into a thin stream and now shoots out of the end with far more velocity. This time when the water stream hits the same stone at the same 90 degree angle to its side, the force of static friction between the stone and the ground is easily overcome and the stone goes flying along the ground, at a much, much faster velocity than in the first scenario because while the force of kinetic friction remains the same as it was in Scenario 1, there is now greater force acting on the stone.
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I'm not your opponent. I'd like to understand what you mean. Factually.
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StupidBrassObsession
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Joined: 25 Mar 2012
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I can refute that WRITTEN explaination without playing a note. And I did.
Not to invalidate anyones playing. But to challenge the false logic associated with their written theories. |
Sure, you can... BUT the problem is that you refuse to acknowledge that many of the people who can play in the high range EXPERIENCE SOME SORT OF BENEFICIAL EFFECT as a result of using tongue arch.
Whether the reasoning is correct or not, their experience suggests something. Whether or not the current scientific explanation makes sense is irrelevant.
Instead of arguing against it as a valid technique, maybe you should be thinking about whether there is ways that using tongue arch could be creating a corollary result. And then we could test it and find out. etc
Just a thought.
The argument is honestly a dumb one. If it works, it works. If the science doesn't make sense, it's because WE DON'T UNDERSTAND what is happening well enough to create a valid scientific theory that explains it. There are more variables involved than we are allowing for. |
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2486
Location: Garland, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | BUT the problem is that you refuse to acknowledge that many of the people who can play in the high range EXPERIENCE SOME SORT OF BENEFICIAL EFFECT as a result of using tongue arch. |
You must be new to this debate, or you would realize that Darryl has said - many times, including in this thread - that tongue arch is beneficial, AND THAT HE HIMSELF USES IT.
| Quote: | | Instead of arguing against it as a valid technique, maybe you should be thinking about whether there is ways that using tongue arch could be creating a corollary result. |
Again, the argument is not about whether or not a tongue arch has benefits. The claim from Darryl is that science is being incorrectly used to both justify and exaggerate those benefits.
Darryl is pretty specific in his point of view. I would recommend reading his position more carefully before leaping to false conclusions.
| Quote: | | The argument is honestly a dumb one. |
Yes, if the argument was what you presented here, it would be dumb. However, what you presented, and what is actually being debated here, are two different things.
The biggest challenge in keeping these debates civil is getting people to actually understand the positions, instead of defaulting into vague emotional reactions.
Jeff |
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trumpetteacher1
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Location: Garland, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not your opponent. I'd like to understand what you mean. Factually. |
Nate, you are very much like a person in the middle of a forest yelling, "Where are the trees?"
The "facts" have been presented throughout this thread. Have you actually read it?
You likened Darryl to a shady lawyer, saying that he would rather attack a person's character than dealing with "the facts." I see no evidence of that from Darryl. You, on the other hand, are engaging in that very tactic. Slick indeed.
How about, instead of asking vague questions, you instead accurately define Darryl's position, say exactly what is wrong with it, and tell us exactly the type of "factual evidence" you would accept that would give evidence to his point of view?
Jeff |
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StupidBrassObsession
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Joined: 25 Mar 2012
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Again, the argument is not about whether or not a tongue arch has benefits. The claim from Darryl is that science is being incorrectly used to both justify and exaggerate those benefits.
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Ugh. So what you're telling me is that Darryl's persistent arguments are a matter of nomenclature? For pete's sake, if this is the case then why doesn't he just say:
"Yeah, tongue arch is great advice. Works like a charm. Hasn't really got anything to do with air speed or xyz but you should still experiment with it" or something of that sort?
Come on! Really? Why all the stupendous debate over person x saying "Tongue arch works because it increases air speed and thus creates easier high range"
and person y who is saying "Tongue arch works because it does [Insert whatever the as yet unspecified reason is, here]"
If this were the case it wouldn't/shouldn't be such a stupidly big deal because both parties agree that it works. Hey presto, "you don't eat pig, we don't eat pig, why not not eat pig together?". Write your peace anthems and get over it.
And I'm sorry, but if the guys claiming honest benefits for using tongue arch can play the horn beter then their opposition, then I'm more inclined to trust that party, because at the end of the day, WHO CARES about whether the currently accepted scientific theory makes sense. All I care about really is whether it helps my playing or not, and that takes all of about 2 minutes to test.
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StupidBrassObsession
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Or to be more succinct, why doesn't each party just say what they've experienced and be done with it.
"I have found that focusing on the way I use my tongue and tongue arch has been greatly beneficial for ________"
and
"I have found that instead of using the tongue, if one instead uses the jaw as the embouchure control mechanism, then they would find benefits for _______"
Or whatever the difference is.
That seems like the more mature and productive approach in my opinion. Arguing over semantics, in the sense of whether tongue arch is effecting air speed vs whether it is effect lip tension, doesn't help anyone... |
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StupidBrassObsession
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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And now for something actually useful:
Herseth lesson notes
The Practice Session and All Playing.
• Practice long tones in all registers and volumes.
• Overlap single tonguing speed with double and triple speeds.
• Solfege--Sight sing--buzz excerpts and studies.
• There are appropriate times for beauty and crudeness - use both.
• Sound is criterion for how you do this or that.
• Melodic playing is very, very important. Know the importance of TONE, even
in technical passages.
• Play tunes in high range, also pick off high notes for practice.
• Remember-shaky high range can be due to letting up before hitting the note--
rather take the lump and blow, that is the only way to be great. If you let up on
all the notes, endurance is lost, and the overall sound is sickening.
• Be consistent, and NEVER PRACTICE BUT ALWAYS PERFORM.
• Never have any tension in the body when playing, just learn to always relax.
• Don't favor slurs, and in fact, DON"T FAVOR ANY NOTES.
• Only practice in 45 minute sessions, that is what Bud does.
• There is nothing wrong with your chops, your mind is messing them up. High register is no more physical than low, it should be as easy and sound just as good. Don't make such an issue of it. This habit must be worked out and will eventually go away, however there is only one way to get rid of this bad habit, and that is to apply concepts every day in your playing.
• Play arpeggios to get all ranges to sound good by being in tune and listening to the sound.
• Play Bud's exercises; like singers do.
• Don't think mechanics at all on the high range, just play and listen.
• When a note sounds beautiful, it is in tune(and vice versa)
• Approach on the lines of good sound and intonation will come there too. The
ear will do all the work if you let it.
• Say "tay" on the lower register to get away from the tubby sound.
• Increase air on the lower register. D and B are good examples of good low
range sound.
• D, E, and E flat - let them float up to where they belong.
• Don't think, just play beautifully. Your ear will tell you, and do all the work for
you if you allow it to. Don't try to place notes, but let them go where they want.
• After working on the mouthpiece, do the same on the horn. Play everything
from excerpts to to pop tunes on it to do things musically. Remember you are
performing these pieces, and not practicing them.
• NEVER PRACTICE, ALWAYS PERFORM.
• When encountering problems, technically or musically, sing them and play
them on the mouthpiece. Then transfer this singing through the horn. Also, add words for added expressiveness, and sing these words through the horn. When a person sings, he does it in a naturally musical way.

• Always take 10 minutes or so off after the first 15-20 minutes of playing (the warmup).
• Rest, like Bud. FEEL FRESH ALL THE TIME.
• Project a message when you play, never impress with mere mechanics.
• Put words to everything.
• THINK ONLY WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE, NOT WHAT IT FEELS LIKE!
• Practice solos much more than drills or exercises for tonguing. Every time Bud
learns a new solo (or rehearses one) it adds a new spark to his playing. Vocalize through the horn. Get a message across to the people - tell them a story, an interesting one. REMEMBER THINGS THAT YOU DO NOW WILL BECOME CONSISTANT LATER AS YOU APPLY CONCEPTS.
• Pulse the primary point - it keeps the music moving, and makes the overall sound more musical.
• Practice all three forms of tonguing; only use legato for extreme double and triple tonguing, to make this tonguing move very fast.
• Slur all technical passages first so you get the tones in mind.
• Do same as above for staccato passages also.
• In all technical and lyrical passages, remember that first and foremost is
TONE QUALITY and MUSICALITY.
• When playing slowly, remember that tongue and fingers have to move as fast as usual.
• Everybody comes in late after rests, do something about it.
• Keep dynamics through phrase, and keep dynamics consistent.
• Keep slurs smooth, don't jolt them - they are easy.
• High range is not a seperate part of trumpet playing, yet most players make
such a big deal of it. It is not any more physical than any other aspects of trumpet playing, rather it should be just as musical. Just move the air more and keep a good sound, and it will always be there.
• High C is not sharp, it's high C. No notes are naturally sharp. Just play and listen for the best sound and you will be in tune. It is very important that you think sound and not intonation. The intonation will be there if the sound is.
• It is important to hear the note played before playing it. If you do, it will be there.
• High range - don't just think "high" before you play and expect to be able to play it.
• On releases - know how long you want to hold the note, and then stop it. Don't just hold it until it stops.
• On soft playing - play soft as if you are playing loud. Flow air the same as a forte.
• Picture the whole phrase before you start to play. Do this all the time.
• Every note must have direction - always must be going somewhere.
• For high range, just use good air flow, with ease of middle and low registers.
• Practice a tune in all registers. Do this often, it will tell whether you are using
the right concepts.
• Balance exercises with solos (music)
• Practice a session on just the mouthpiece.
• Tonguing has to be 5% consonant and 95% vowel. To much tongue inhibits the
air flow. Use no more tongue than in normal speech, and release air
immediately.
• Think SOUND always - loud and soft.
• Never practice- always perform.
• Practice various ways of articulating everything. (excerpts, solos, etc. i.e. slur
Petroushka solo, tongue Schlossberg #18, etc.)
• Get the sound you want in your head first, then play it. Listen as much as
possible.
• Send a message when you play.
• USE ONLY MECHANICS TO THINK OF PLAYING AS A WHOLE, AND
BREATHING, AND ALL THE REST IS MUSIC.
• Play by sound, not by feel.
• Never work harder than necessary for a desired result.
• Do interval exercises (all articulations).
• Accent is not more tongue, but more air.
• For etude practice, get them clean slowly, then speed them up.
• Melodic playing is very important. Know importance of tone (even in technical
passages).
• When you get high horns, play tune on them, then take low horn and play same
pitches the same way. You will forget which horn is which.
• Relate little horns to the big ones. The same concepts apply.
• WHEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE, BE PROUD OF IT. PUT YOUR HORN
DOWN AND STARE AT THE CONDUCTOR. UNLESS HIS EAR IS
GREAT, HE WON'T KNOW. IF HE DOES, FINE!
• NEVER PRACTICE, PERFORM.
• Don't just listen to yourself on ensemble playing - let the ensemble help you on
your entrances so you can be part of it and not playing along with it. All accompaniments will help you to play. Have them in your head so you just don't play out of context.
• Listen to good artists, and know what you want.
• A trumpeter's life is risky, and you have to be able to take those risks. No great
playing is accomplished if a person is afraid of playing. To be timid or favor
notes or ranges is running away from that risk.
• DON'T THINK YOU HAVE PROBLEMS TO WORRY ABOUT IN YOUR
PLAYING, JUST CERTAIN ASPECTS OF YOUR PLAYING AREN'T PERFECTED YET. DON'T WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING IN YOUR PLAYING, JUST ENJOY IT!
• Practice on the mouthpiece every day before your regular session. Walk around and play anything musical (no drills) from excerpts to pop tunes. Concentrate on being very musical on these pieces, and most important, on a very LARGE SOUND on the mouthpiece.
• The mouthpiece, because of the lack of divisions, it is possible to go over all ranges, and it forces you to use your ear. Also in emergency situations, it can be used as a substitute for regular practice on the horn.
• Play a complete session on the mouthpiece once in a while. This keeps you from getting hangups on the horn, and improves everything from sound to articualtion.
• Whenever you are having problems on any piece, play it on the mouthpiece.
• Play no drills on the mouthpiece, only music.
• REMEMBER - BIG SOUND ALL THE TIME.
• When taking a breath, pronounce the word "ho" yet inhaling at the same time.
• When using this method for practice, put hand on stomach and chest - it should
move out on its own due to lungs filling up.
• For getting the feeling of an absolutely open airway and flow, put one end of a
toilet paper roll in mouth and inhale - note the equal ease of inhaling and
exhaling.
• Breathe from low in the lungs rather than from the chest. If done correctly, the
stomach will go out on its own.
• To get a big sound, it is imperative that the air flow (or movement) is greater.
The pressure of air flow is not what creates the big sound, it is much the same as violin, which creates a bigger sound when the bow is moved faster across the strings then from pressure on the strings.
• Release air immediately - don't hold it.
• Differences between cornet and trumpet - there is none due to modern methods of construction. Most of sound difference is due to bends in tubing, rather than conical vs. cylindrical bores.
• Stravinsky pieces - in world premieres of many of his works, Stravinsky said that cornets need not be used because of little difference between them and trumpets.
• Keep your horn free from ANY dirt inside. Clean it weekly if necessary. Clean mouthpiece daily. Clean horns and mouthpieces so nothing is ever in the horn.
• To have good all around range you have to have good pedal tones. This is due to more and better vibrations producing more harmonics and a richer sound.
• Slur pedal tone from octave, finger according to chart below:
C - open, B - open, Bb - 2, A - 2, Ab - 1, G - 12, F# - 23, F - 13, Eb - 123
• Play pedal tones on both Bb and C horns (harder on Bb)
• Slur and tongue down from normal notes an octave to pedal, so you have an in
tune note to relate it to.
• Don't overblow, just blow to get the best sound.
• Do Carnival of Venice starting on pedal C
• I would rather jump right in and make mistakes than be timid.
• Essence of Bud's lessons is that he builds ego, attitude, and musicianship. He lets the technical things work themselves out.
• Have the attitude of "I can play anything". This is necessary for great trumpet playing.
• Always, after hearing someone play something, say "I can do it better, or if not better, different."
• Whenever you have difficulty technically, think of the passage more musically, that's what is wrong.
• The reason Herseth is better than you are, is not that he tries harder, but he thinks musically. It is amazing what the chops can do when you get the head out of the way!
• Don't over-warmup for a performance; always go in a little under warmed up. Just warmup as low and high as the piece will go, that's all, then quit.
• On any orchestral excerpt, study the scores and listen to recordings. Remember that Bud really believes in listening as a teaching guide to good playing. Never play any isolated notes in orchestra. Always be aware of the color that you add and know your role. Know what is important. Remember that there are different interpretations ( that is important). Don't just go by one recording.
• Always be heard - no matter the dynamics.
• When studying the score, know how it is to sound, and don't change unless the conductor forces you to. Don't wait to be told, if he isn't taking your tempo, change it.
• For your own personal satisfaction, DO THE BEST JOB THAT CAN BE
DONE!
• IT IS NOT A MATTER OF BEING BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE, HOW
CAN YOU LOVE TRYING TO BE BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. PLAY
FOR YOUR OWN SATISFACTION, AND FOR OTHERS ENJOYMENT.
• IF I COULDN'T PLAY THIS THING AS WELL AS IT COULD BE
PLAYED, I WOULDN'T PLAY IT!!!!
• Don't think of auditioning for a job, or against someone, just offer what music you have to offer. If they like it, fine. If not, that's fine too, go somewhere else. Just make music and enjoy yourself. If you do get excited, apply it to the music and not to the situation. Your goal should be to play as well as Bud, not to have a particular job!!!
• Be anxious to play, not afraid to play.
• Sound is criterion for how you play and whether you are doing things right.
• Say "tu" with the tongue for fast and nice sounding tonguing. This keeps it out of the way, or it will hinder the sound. It also keeps multiple tonguing faster and more even.
Do lip trills daily for strong and more dependable high range.
• You never really know how much Doc and Bud hurt when they are playing,
just play beautifully and forget how it feels.
• Don't only try for musicality and precision in performance, try all the time as in performance. REMEMBER - NEVER PRACTICE, ALWAYS PERFORM.
• LIVE!!!!! Play and show you are alive, and have something to say to the
audience.
• The horn is just a megaphone of yourself, show them how you feel!
• Don't overblow. Take it easy. You will play better if you don't actually blow so hard, and concentrate on the actual volume of air for a BIG SOUND. |
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2-5-1
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | 2-5-1 wrote: |
On the other hand, you both are trumpet forum celebrities now...so that has to count for something. |
And you as well!
Do you lace your boots high?
Are you fly, are you fly?
Do you dig, do you dig?
Do you swing on the gig?
Are you hep to the jive?
 |
Says the guy with almost 7000 posts. Get a life! 
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www.mikesailorsmusic.com |
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crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8164
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Hey Gate, are you in the know or are you a solid bringer downer?
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
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2-5-1
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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*Gates
You just can't get right Nate.
BESAMMMMMMEE MUUUUUCCCCCHHHOOOOO!!!!!!
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crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8164
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:28 am Post subject: |
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A FOGGY DAYYYY, IN LONDON TOOOOWNNN BOWWW WOWWW!!
p.s. typos don't count.
By the way, I got it right enough to buy a car with the money I made playing "Are You Hep to the Jive" every night. Yes, EVERY night (well, a couple of nights off a month). Where people packed the joints and paid to get in. Those folks must not have had Masters degrees though. Did I mention that I wrote the arrangement and produced the session for the album the band recorded? Oh, it sold over 50,000 copies . . . BESAME MUCHO!!!! . . . INDEED!
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer
Last edited by crzytptman on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8164
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: |
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Jeff, at your request I went and read this 7 page thread. I admit that I hadn't looked prior to I think page 5. On page 4 Darryl makes a couple of posts where I completely agree with him. So, I'll take back what I said earlier.
The way I see the issue, there is a correlation between certain physical aspects (not aspects of Physics) that give results. Often the reasons given have nothing to do with what the actual Physics would indicate is happening. However, until someone actually compiles the data (factual evidence), even the Physics explanation is just a hypothesis. But, so is the physical explanation.
A bird flies because it flaps it's wings. All flying beings flap wings. But, flying machines don't have flapping wings.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
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percivalthehappyboy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 595
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| StupidBrassObsession wrote: | many of the people who can play in the high range EXPERIENCE SOME SORT OF BENEFICIAL EFFECT as a result of using tongue arch.
Whether the reasoning is correct or not, their experience suggests something. Whether or not the current scientific explanation makes sense is irrelevant.
|
For what it's worth, that's how I figure it. I've started experimenting with tongue arch, and I think there's something to it. I don't accept Claude Gordon's theory that the lips have nothing to do with it, that the pitch is controlled solely by the tongue. Actually, I can FEEL my lips and jaw responding. Irons also advocates attention to the tongue, saying
"Although the lips and the facial muscles are important factors in the performance of these exercises, the student should feel that he is varying the pitch of his instrument by raising and lowering his tongue..."
That seems more like it. As for what the student should be doing, he's saying the same thing that Gordon said, think about the tongue. And he has as good as agreed with Gordon that the lips will take care of themselves.
But the theory hardly matters if you follow the instructions and get the results. The physics could be totally out of whack and yet the theory is true, even if only in a poetic sense, if it leads to results.
Hey, I have a degree in science, trained as an experimentalist, I know something about empiricism and measurement, I value it. And I'm still saying that the physics can be out of whack and the theory still be true enough if you get a result from it. It's pedagogy of musical performance, not experimental acoustics. |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3571
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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It's my strong sense that components of the system being described are far too numerous and too interdependent for typical conversation. The descriptions used by most are often technically incomplete and/or inaccurate and the analytical disection of them rarely helpful.
Now I would be thrilled to a much more complete and precise modeling of the system at having one could possibly shine light on the problems vexing some players. But until that happens I think we're all going to have to rely on our existing vocalulary and subjective experiences, flawed as they are.
FWIW my clearest demonstration of the mechanics of playing high (at least one way) showed that it was essential to have both a robust channeling of the air through the mouth cavity by the tongue AND a suitable aperature that can respond as needed to the channeled air. Neither will work worth a darn without the other.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Kanstul 920 Picc
Conn 80A Cornet
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2-5-1
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | A FOGGY DAYYYY, IN LONDON TOOOOWNNN BOWWW WOWWW!!
p.s. typos don't count.
By the way, I got it right enough to buy a car with the money I made playing "Are You Hep to the Jive" every night. Yes, EVERY night (well, a couple of nights off a month). Where people packed the joints and paid to get in. Those folks must not have had Masters degrees though. Did I mention that I wrote the arrangement and produced the session for the album the band recorded? Oh, it sold over 50,000 copies . . . BESAME MUCHO!!!! . . . INDEED! |
Sorry, I don't get here with the regularity that you do.
Congratulations Nathan! It's about time you got your first ride. What are you, like 50? Now you don't have to bum a ride to all your coffee shop gigs!
http://themodernancients.com/category/club-dates/
Congratulations on doing what all professional musicians do; earn a living.
Enjoy your night off tonight!
Mike
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www.mikesailorsmusic.com |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5643
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | John wrote: | Quote: | | I think it's clear that the faster velocity of the water in Scenario 2 causes an increase in Kinetic Energy acting on the stone, which results in the stone moving faster. |
Don't go there John!
If this is your "visualization" then simply designate it as such. But if you dare want to get literal and technical and use terms like "kinetic energy" and "pressure" in a literal sense, then,
I think for the benefit of all and for the sake of this thread:
1. I have debunked this "garden hose" comparison to the actual playing system more than once here on TH. No need to do it again. |
You have "debunked" nothing. You have given your opinion about this (an opinion that is contrary not only to my opinion, but to the opinions of the vast majority of top-level teachers and professional players), and you have provided arguments based on your knowledge of Physics. But in my opinion, you are not correct in your assumptions (for instance, you claim that the air pressure is the same throughout the oral cavity, though I've made it clear that my tongue channels the airstream directly to the center-most portion of my lips and I've shown this to be true with the coffee stirrer experiment).
Let's be clear here. We are discussing our opinions about complicated phenomena. Your stating of your opinions as fact will not make them so.
By the way, someone else here as asked you to explain what is happening when the stone moves. Why don't you do that? If I am wrong in my description of that occurrence, kindly enlighten us!
Best wishes,
John |
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crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8164
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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HAHA! Sailor boy - your dirty diaper is showing!
I'm done with your juvenile nonsense. You wanna make something of it, do it face to face. Little boy hiding behind a keyboard.
I'm sorry that band isn't working. That's not my only musical outlet. The reasons The Modern Ancients aren't working have nothing to do with popularity. The more assumptions you make, the dirtier your diaper gets.
You and The Fool don't like my playing, and that's fine with me. In fact, having listened to both of you on your respective websites, I feel I'm going in the right direction.
I use the website link so people can listen to something I'm proud of. You don't like it? I'm even more proud.
Now, leave this forum to it's purpose.
EDIT:
Ok, I want to apologize for the above. In my selfishness, I failed to recognize the wisdom of Mike Sailors. I now realize that my only hope for any kind of worth lies in his opinion of me and my trumpet playing. Mike, I need your blessing to restore my self worth. I promise to try harder, to be worthy of your praise. Please don't be too hard on me, your humble servant.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer
Last edited by crzytptman on Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5643
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Daryl, I am curious as to what your range is? Do you have a good solid sound above High C? |
| crzytptman wrote: | | Got any proof? |
I don't think Darryl needs to prove anything. He has no reason to make up stories about his range.
| Quote: | | I know John has told us about his techniques and the high notes he can regularly play. |
| kalijah wrote: | Yes, but where can we hear him play? Has he posted any clips?
I am not saying he can't. I am just sayin I have not heard him. |
| crzytptman wrote: | | I would like to know that as well. |
I hope I've got the quoted excerpts in the right order above (I don't want to waste time and space with the non-pertinent parts of the above discussion).
I have nothing on the internet - especially show-off range displays - for a reason. I am currently seeking work again and in my experience, the people that do the hiring for shows and stuff are not really interested in players who are all about their high notes. I might be putting together an audition video to submit to certain production companies. If I do, I might put it on YouTube as well.
Besides, I think my word should be enough - it's not like I have anything at stake whether a reader on the Trumpet Herald trusts my word. Believe me if you want, or don't - that's up to you. I don't think my ego requires that I take time to make a recording, and then post it to YouTube just to convince you all. But, it's pretty easy to copy and paste, so here's what others have said about my range:
From: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=11330&forum=5&4:
| Blue Devil wrote: |
What a great experience to have these lessons with John! First of all, John is a fantastic player with solid, solid, abilities in all areas of trumpet playing - tone, power, technique (tons of technique), intonation, flexibilty, range, etc. As far as range is concerned, for anyone on TH that has wondered about the ability of the Claude Gordon method to produce good range, or about John's range in particular, I'd like to dispense any of those ideas by noting that John was able to extend the arpeggio exercises that we were playing to an E flat above double C.
Mike Trzesniak |
From: http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34839 :
| Blue Devil wrote: | John also has an excellent range...
...I have personally heard him play consistently up to double C and beyond. The highest I have actually heard him play is a G above double C (that's not to say that's even the limit to John's range, but rather that is only the highest that I have actually heard him play). I have heard him play arpeggios up in this range, I have heard him pick up his horn cold (i.e. first time playing for the day) and knock out an F above high C that would make lots of people jealous, and I have also heard him play musical passages well into the upper register. |
| FlugelFlyer wrote: | | I can verify that also. His range is double C at minimum. |
| trickg wrote: | When he was still gigging in Germany, I called him one day (or he called me, I can't remember which) just to shoot the breeze a bit, and just fiddling around, he pickup up his horn, and cold, played (if memory serves me correctly) the opening sequence of Cats - clean, with not so much as a scuffed note.
Then we were talking a bit about range and he picked up his horn and picked off an F above high C - clean, clear, controlled, full - no sweat. I head this over the telephone line and although a telephone earpiece doesn't offer the best representation of sound, it was good enough that I could clearly tell that he had a great sound and great control.
Yeah, he has range. He has range to burn, but more importantly, John plays with a great sound, very cleanly and very musically, and he can do it up to double C and probably beyond.
John owns the horn, the whole horn and nothing but the horn, so help me Claude. |
| jakepainter wrote: | What is so important about John's playing is that he is a great all round player, he's not just some guy that can scream high notes. He's got the whole horn under his command. He does not make mistakes, and at the end of the day that's why he gets booked. The Md's know that when they book him the part gets played correctly.
I had a lesson with him in Berlin a few years ago and he is solid as f***.. was a great lesson, stopped me giving up playing, gave me some hope of playing this hunk of metal for a living and giving up my IT job !!!
Good luck with everything John, and say hello to Anne.. what happened to your dogs in the move to the US?
jake |
Okay, I think that's enough Bandwidth... The fact is, there's lot's of players who can play up to the top of the register and some of them don't have a clue of what they're doing and how they're doing it. They just naturally got the "knack" of it quicker than others.
I am not one of those people. I tried and tried and was stuck on High C from the 3rd year of my playing to the 8th year I was playing. It was then that I learned the role of the tongue and the need for lots of air power to provide the needed air pressure. And it was then that my range started climbing, eventually reaching above Double High C. What I've learned from Claude has worked out very well for me, and has worked out very well for my students, too - and not just the range part, but more importantly, in terms of overall playing ability.
In the end, we are discussing a very complicated system. I don't think Darryl has it all 100% sewn up, and I probably don't, either. But in the end, if it works, it works. And what I learned and share has clearly worked for me.
Best wishes,
John
Last edited by John Mohan on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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