Doubling is magic!

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: Doubling is magic!

Doc told me once that he thought we all ought to double, that is, trumpet players play trombone and vice versa.

When I spend time daily playing both my trumpet and my bass trumpet, I find that my chops are the most cooperative. I did a quartet jazz gig last night (me on trumpet & bass trumpet with a loud rhythm section), and most of the time I leave those gigs with my tail between my legs and my chops dragging the ground all the way home and for half of the next day.

Well, since I've been spending more time daily with both trumpet and bass trumpet (make that more bass trumpet than usual), my chops felt utterly invincible last night.

It was nothing short of a miracle.

Anyway, Doc told me that his one caution for doublers is that the circles need to be concentric. When you take the horn off your face, look in the mirror at the "circle" on your chops. The one from trombone (or a low brass) should not overlap the one from the trumpet (or a high brass).

The dictionary definition of concentric is two circles sharing a common centerpoint. In my case, the two circles share the same uppermost spot on my top lip, but they don't "overlap" as Doc specified.

I would also add that if somebody is thinking of starting to double, my experience was that gradually adding the newer instrument is the "safest" way to do it. My tendency was to pick up the new instrument and go to town, but exercising restraint in the early stages has turned out to be the key to successful doubling for me.

Of course, it helps to start each day with some sort of Reinhardt warmup or regimen of drills.

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EdMann · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:32 am Post subject:

Rich, I'm loving it as well. I usually spend about 20-30 mins on my tenor bone before the kids ruin, er, wake up, and then trpt, trpt, trpt. I've been making strides ever since on both. Not sure if I'm concentric or not, but Bill Lamb, a great doubler keyed me in on round rim bone pieces, like my Wick 7 and 12C, so they don't interfere much with the trpt embouchure. I hope to play bone for the first time at a blues gig at the end of the month, with some trepidation. It's my Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.

ed

jwilson46 · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject:

Jerry Freedman · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject:

Are there embouchure/tongue types that lend themselves more to doubling than others?

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:44 pm Post subject:

Hey, John, I was showing the Leno embouchure video to a student today and came across this one with me in it playing both bass trumpet and trumpet. Unfortunately, those clear mouthpieces really aren't very close to what I normally play and I don't sound all that good, but you can definitely see my chops from about 7:50 to about 9:30.

And Jerry, I don't recall Doc saying that there were any types that were more or less suited for doubling than any others. In my opinion, the reason many won't (and don't) try it is for fear of messing up what they've already attained when the truth is that the vast majority of them would only benefit with a gradual approach to the "new" horn.
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jwilson46 · Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:24 pm Post subject:

Rich,

I remember that you were an ambiguous IIIA or IIIB. In your case IIIB was the way to go. I, as an ambiguous IIIA or IIIB became IIIA. I'm guessing that both of us have rather high placements. I think a IIIB with a high placement wouldn't have a problem with doubling as long as we don't switch types. I have a baritone horn and it helped to affirm my IIIA. I remember that Doc said doubling was good as long as you didn't switch types. I don't always trust my memory. My point is that doubling helps if done correctly. Do you agree?

John

BeboppinFool · Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:09 am Post subject:

Tim McGinley · Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject:

It has been years since I have regularly doubled on trombone. Since switching to teaching middle school band, I have found that the time I spend playing trombone to demonstrate low brass for my students has really helped my trumpet chops stay in shape. Playing 20 or so minutes on my trombone really helps my trumpet set up solidify. It is also pretty therapeutic spending time on a larger mouthpiece. Aside from that, it is fun to put in some time on a slide versus a valve block

It keeps me humble.

connloyalist · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:21 am Post subject:

Hi,

It's been a looong time since I last posted (does anyone here remember me?). As it happens I am considering taking up trombone, for various reasons including that my community band has a glut of trumpet players and a shortage of trombone players. But I don't really want to "lose" my trumpet.

In which sequence do you practice trumpet then trombone or trombone then trumpet? Does it make a difference?

What size mouthpiece would you suggest for trombone? Something on the small side that may be a bit closer to trumpet, or more average trombone?

Regards, Christine
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BeboppinFool · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:22 am Post subject:

Hey, Christine, yes of course, I remember you. I've referred to your site countless times when needing information about various Conn trumpets and it's truly an amazing resource.

As far as doubling . . . if you're playing trumpet more often than trombone during this transition period, I would suggest practicing trumpet much more than trombone.

In fact, I would also suggest "babying it in" on trombone . . . getting oriented to the larger mouthpiece in baby steps. A little tiny bit daily at first followed by plenty of rest before returning to trumpet.

After awhile, gradually building up your trombone playing time, I would still highly recommend spending more time on trumpet than trombone.

Doc Reinhardt never told me this, but I did study trombone (and bass trumpet) under him. He died long before I attempted to make what turned out to be my final "comeback" to trumpet, but I'm confident that he knew one day I'd be back on trumpet.

Anyway, in my Reinhardt inspired opinion and long track record of doubling experience, it all boils down to sensations. The last thing you want to do is disrupt your trumpet sensations by spending too much time on trombone too early in your transitional period.

At first you'll want to keep the instruments separate, but over time you will probably get to where you can go back and forth between the two quite easily. And the more you do that, the better your trumpet playing will feel.

I know Dave Sheetz has been spending a lot of time on trombone lately, and maybe he'll chime in.

We try not to waste our carbon footprints around here, so hopefully further posts will be helpful and informative. Welcome back, Christine!
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jwilson46 · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject:

Rich,

Good information!!! I bought a small euphonium several months ago. It is a lot easier for me to play than valve trombone. I'm not sure why notes respond easier but I suspect it has something to do with the amount of tubes and harmonics.

I have four old bach mouthpieces: 6 3/4C, 11C, 6 1/2A, and 12C. I also have a Denis Wick 12CS. Any recommendations? Initially the Wick felt easiest.

I haven't played the horn that much recently but after reading your post decided to spend more time with it. Euphonium has always been easy for me to play. I wish the trumpet was that comfortable.

John

brassjunkie · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject:

I can confirm the positive benefits others have mentioned. I am playing roughly equal amounts of trombone and trumpet at the moment and I notice my trumpet chops recover quicker, last longer and I have more flexibility and a more resonant sound. I think trombone playing has improved my embouchure, making it come more forward off my teeth and stay more relaxed in the center. I am guessing trombone playing has a similar effect to playing pedal tones or playing on the didgeridoo? It works better for me than pedal tones, anyway. I'm not sure it suits or would benefit all trumpet players, might be a case of different strokes for different folks.
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Paul T. · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:31 am Post subject:

Hmmm...

Maybe playing the trombone (or euphonium) should be a good counter-suggestion to trumpet players who want to play lots of pedal tones?

(I don't have any experience with this myself!)

jwilson46 · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:47 am Post subject:

I've seen James Morrison a couple times live and I don't recall him ever playing pedals. I've also seem him warm up. I'm sure you all agree he is a fabulous musician. The first time I heard about him many years ago was from Dave Steinmeyer, great trombone player from the Airmen of Note. He said that James liked to play trumpet and trombone because it made his chops better on both instruments.

John

Pockettrumpet · Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:21 am Post subject:

BobList · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject:

I am in the process of learning bone again, doubling. It makes my trumpet chops feel great!.. Anyway, Learning slide positions is like pulling teeth.
So, two questions:
1). Didn't Doc state that in order to develop the supple, flowing slide action that is desired, when you practice scales and such, STOP the slide deliberately on each note ( position), and I mean STOP it!? I thought I read or heard that somewhere. ( Maybe the equivalant of Doc Severensen saying when practicing trumpet, hit the valves HARD and deliberate?)

2). Due to the fact I play off to the left, ( trpt and trombone), are there any issues with turning the slide so that I use the left hand to slide and the right hand to hold it? It's the only way I can play fluently without bending a mouthpiece or bell bow. Just curious.

Bob List
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zachman727 · Regular Member Joined: 08 May 2012 Posts: 37

The Encyclopedia says:

"Sensible practice of two octave chromatics from the low 'Bb' to the high 'Bb' and return should be accomplished with diligence every day. Stop the slide motion in every position, and I mean STOP it. Do this every day from ten to fifteen minutes. Your positions will stay nicely in line and you can be graceful about it."

Case XII in the Appendix, Pg A-66.

pfeifela · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject:

Regarding the benefits of doubling for your trumpet playing: In what order would place these benefits:

1) Range
2) Endurance
3) Sound
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nieuwguyski · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject:

royjohn · Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:23 pm Post subject:

Very interesting thread. I play Bb trumpet and also work on the Eb trumpet and the picc nowadays. I have played euphonium in the past, but have been thinking of taking up the tuba again . . . I have played it some in the past, but not since becoming serious about trumpet again.

Any thoughts about whether or not this is a good idea?
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