Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: Starting Systematic Approach plus Q's along the way
Hello,
I've decided to start Systematic Approach today. I'm not sure why really, I just had the desire to add something solid and progressive to support my routine other than just the usual Clarke and Arban.
I wanted to start this thread so I could perhaps ask question along the way if I have any. If that's okay with the moderator?
---
Lesson 1:
Question: With the crescendo, it says to crescendo at the end of the note but to play until empty (then a bit further)...
So am I supposed to hold the note for a while, then crescendo as I start running out of breath?
Also, as I run out of breath, the note is obviously going to die away, and start to wobble or sound like a goat I assume this is what he is after?
Comments: Whew! Tiring on the body moving so much air! My lips enjoy it though! A little tingling. Feels good and the sound got some serious sizzle after I got to part II and III
Edit:
p.s. Just played the best F# above High C of my existence...
Last edited by StupidBrassObsession on Thu May 03, 2012 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 437 Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject:
I certainly don't want to answer as if I'm a CG expert, I'm not! But, I am in lessons now and have a good sense of what the exercises are about.
So, the way these were explained to me...
The crescendo is more of an attempted crescendo...it doesn't really have to be a "real" crescendo. The idea is to move the air freely. Don't hold back, but don't force it either. As you run out, yes the note will get weak, then disappear, keep pushing even after the sound has stopped. Work the muscles that blow.
Take some lessons with a CG teacher. Highly recommended.
I am in Australia and take online lessons via Skype with Jeff Purtle, there is another guy as well in Queensland...Brett Loretz....well worth checking out....Have a look at his web site at purtle.com....Jeff was a student of Claudes for 10 years and is accredited to teach the method by Claude after completing a year long course.
If you want any more info or anything, let me know
Cheers
Eric
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 411 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject:
Herbert L Clarke's wind power routine :
1. Take a big comfortable breath, blow strongly and confidently.
2. As you begin to run out of air, keep the chest up and try to blow stronger.
3. When the note stops sounding, keep the chest up and try to blow EVEN stronger.
4. Keep the chest up and PUSH, PUSH, PUSH until all the air is gone, and longer ... until you hit rock bottom and you can no longer squeeze.
5. Do not hold back in an effort to make the note last a long time. How long you hold it doesn't matter. Blowing until all the air is gone, and longer, does.
The stronger you squeeze the greater the benefits. This builds tremendous wind power and control.
Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 103 Location: Northern Virginia
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Starting Systematic Approach plus Q's along the way
StupidBrassObsession wrote:
Lesson 1:
Question: With the crescendo, it says to crescendo at the end of the note but to play until empty (then a bit further)...
So am I supposed to hold the note for a while, then crescendo as I start running out of breath?
Also, as I run out of breath, the note is obviously going to die away, and start to wobble or sound like a goat I assume this is what he is after?
A couple of things to note:
Don't stay on Lesson 1 very long. I've heard from all of the CG students that he would more often start students on Lesson 2, where the Part 1 and Part 2 exercises have motion as opposed to just a static hold.
Despite what the instructions in your book say, Part 2 notes should not be held until the air is depleted. All Part 2 exercises in the book are range builders, and you hold the fermata note just long enough to get a controlled crescendo starting from a comfortable mezzo forte.
Also (you may know already)
In addition to Jeff Purtle, my teacher - Bruce Haag - gives lessons via Skype (that's what I do). I know I've heard John Mohan talk about doing online lessons as well, but he'll have to chime in whether or not he's set up for that now.
And, Eric Bolvin has resources available on his website that can help you get started properly. _________________ David Roberts - The Systematic Approach
"It’s HOW you practice, WHAT you practice and WHEN you practice that counts." - Claude Gordon
1. Take a big comfortable breath, blow strongly and confidently.
2. As you begin to run out of air, keep the chest up and try to blow stronger.
3. When the note stops sounding, keep the chest up and try to blow EVEN stronger.
4. Keep the chest up and PUSH, PUSH, PUSH until all the air is gone, and longer ... until you hit rock bottom and you can no longer squeeze.
hahaha Masochism at it's finest. So this is what having a seizure feels like... hahah But seriously, my whole body starts shaking!!! lol
Also! Thank you all for the suggestions regarding teachers etc I'll check them out.
Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 103 Location: Northern Virginia
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:19 am Post subject:
StupidBrassObsession wrote:
Okay, quick question...
Bending/Pivoting backwards at the waist... Yay or nay?
I instinctively want to do it when breathing deeply and when trying to really force out the last drops.
Is this encouraged or discouraged?
You can answer this and many other similar questions by asking yourself,
"When I (fill in an action), does it work contrary to or oppose the 7 natural elements of brass playing?"
- Wind Power
- The tongue
- Wind control
- The lips
- The muscles of the face and lips
- The fingers of the right hand
- The left hand
Your guidelines are spelled out in the front of Systematic Approach and in Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing.
When I'm standing, I'll lean back some but not while seated. If you're practicing the breathing exercises as prescribed, the correct posture (for you) will transfer over to your playing when you really start to get the knack of it and habit takes charge.
My teacher is really fond of saying "don't worry about that too much right now." And what he is saying is, "just practice correctly, and all those details will work themselves out." _________________ David Roberts - The Systematic Approach
"It’s HOW you practice, WHAT you practice and WHEN you practice that counts." - Claude Gordon
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 411 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:02 am Post subject:
quote="David Roberts"
"When I (fill in an action), does it work contrary to or oppose the 7 natural elements of brass playing?"
- Wind Power
- The tongue
- Wind control
- The lips
- The muscles of the face and lips
- The fingers of the right hand
- The left hand
____________________________________________________________
Herbert L. Clarke in his book Setting Up Drills has listed the seven basic physical elements that must be developed in order to play correctly. These items here are listed in the order of importance:
1. WIND POWER
2. THE TONGUE
3. WIND CONTROL
4. THE MUSCLES SURROUNDING THE LIPS
5. THE LIPS
6. THE FINGERS OF THE RIGHT HAND
7. THE LEFT HAND
Ten Basic Principles of Physical Trumpet Playing
1. Get in shape...Stay in shape. As a trumpet player you are an athlete, so you must
train like one.
2. Assume the Command Position and Posture.
3. ALWAYS take a big breath with the CHEST UP.
4. Set the mouthpiece high on the upper lip. Allow the muscles to contract as you
ascend and relax as you descend.
5. Moisten the lips.
6. Articulate with the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth.
7. To build wind power, blow until all the air is gone, and longer. To build wind control,
play softly in a whisper, many times in one breath.
8. Think "Tee" as you ascend ... "Taw" as you descend.
9. Lift the fingers high .. Strike the valves hard.
10. Practice in a positive, happy frame of mind.
As explained by Bill Knevitt
Last edited by solo soprano on Sat May 05, 2012 11:25 am; edited 4 times in total
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 5667 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Starting Systematic Approach plus Q's along the way
StupidBrassObsession wrote:
Question: With the crescendo, it says to crescendo at the end of the note but to play until empty (then a bit further)...
So am I supposed to hold the note for a while, then crescendo as I start running out of breath?
Also, as I run out of breath, the note is obviously going to die away, and start to wobble or sound like a goat I assume this is what he is after?
Comments: Whew! Tiring on the body moving so much air! My lips enjoy it though! A little tingling. Feels good and the sound got some serious sizzle after I got to part II and III
Edit:
p.s. Just played the best F# above High C of my existence...
It's more of an "attempted crescendo". As you start to run empty, try to make the note crescendo. It probably won't actually get louder, since you do this when you're running out of air. The idea is to make sure you really work the blowing muscles. As I think you're discovering, this is really "trumpet weightlifting". The Part 1 exercises do wonders in the development of air power.
Note that you should only hold the last notes of the Part 2 exercises long enough to make a slight (real) crescendo - maybe about 4 or 5 beats.
Congratulations on your F#! Soon that'll be happening on the G. And then the G#. Etc.
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
14 Year Claude Gordon Student
1st Trpt for "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera",
"West Side Story", "Evita", "Grease",
Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", etc.
Burbank Benge 6x
Copy of a Mt Vernon 3C
This is great. I'm doing lesson 3, Part II now, and High C feels like it's just floating out on a relaxed breath of air! So effortless!
----
@Eric Bolvin: Thanks Eric, I looked at your video when someone first suggested it. In regards to breathing, it looks like "Chest Up" is an instruction to let the shoulders roll back into a good standing posture, and breath in as the air will, which fills the abdomen and also expands the chests area (without the shoulders raising). Then when you blow out, the air gets pushed from the abdomen area.
The Billows metaphor was helpful. I realised that I have only ever thought of pushing the air by puling the stomach in towards the spine, but If you think of squeezing the air from the sides, it works much better I think!
@Solo Soprano: I downloaded a couple of those Knevitt mp3 from the website your linked to in another thread. Very good stuff.
----
Question:
With part 2 exercises... What do you do if you overshoot the note? I'm finding my trumpet which is just a yamaha 6335J doesn't seem to slot High D, Eb, and E. At least not using the normal fingerings.
If you overshoot, should you correct, or just hold that note?
Also, if you hit the note, and then it slips down to the next partial... What do you do then also?
Joined: 26 Jan 2012 Posts: 411 Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:15 am Post subject:
quote="StupidBrassObsession"
Question:
With part 2 exercises... What do you do if you overshoot the note? I'm finding my trumpet which is just a yamaha 6335J doesn't seem to slot High D, Eb, and E. At least not using the normal fingerings.
If you overshoot, should you correct, or just hold that note?
Also, if you hit the note, and then it slips down to the next partial... What do you do then also?
Thanks![/quote]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air only goes to one place, your lungs.
Correct mistakes first thing, don't become good at playing mistakes.
Slipping down to next partial means your tongue has not developed enough to hold that level. To correct this, practice articulation exercises.
Slot problems, try playing the high part of the exercise an octave lower first to
establish the pitch.
Sounds like your moving along at a fast clip. Remember to spend enough time on each lesson to give yourself the time to develop. It's much better to go slow than rush thru.
Think of your upper lip as the main source of vibration. And your lower lip, tongue and jaw. they all work together as your main source of flexibility
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 5667 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:59 am Post subject:
StupidBrassObsession wrote:
Question:
With part 2 exercises... What do you do if you overshoot the note?
Celebrate!
(Couldn't resist!)
StupidBrassObsession wrote:
I'm finding my trumpet which is just a yamaha 6335J doesn't seem to slot High D, Eb, and E. At least not using the normal fingerings.
If you overshoot, should you correct, or just hold that note?
I think the difficulty with slotting will diminish as you gain strength and also gain the feel of these notes. If you overshoot, bend the tone down to the proper pitch (if you can). If it won't bend down, and instead just wants to skip several partials downward (skipping past the note you're trying to find), then get it onto the slightly too high partial and sustain that note for a few beats.
StupidBrassObsession wrote:
Also, if you hit the note, and then it slips down to the next partial... What do you do then also?
This is a very typical problem. What is happening is, you are getting the note, but then you are letting your tongue level drop after initially getting the note. Often this is the result of trying to play the exercise too loudly, especially if you are playing the beginning of each arpeggio (the lower notes) too loudly. When we play louder notes, we use less tongue arch - especially on the lower notes. That's why while Claude instructs us to "step on the gas" as we go up in range but to "back off" when playing the lower notes.
Here's a video with Claude Gordon student Susan Slaughter (formerly the Principal Trumpet Player of the St. Louis Symphony) talking about this very problem. Susan's part begins at 2:15 on the video:
I want to commend you on your enthusiasm and initial success with the CG method. Now stick with it and let it all develop!
Best wishes,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
14 Year Claude Gordon Student
1st Trpt for "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera",
"West Side Story", "Evita", "Grease",
Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", etc.
Burbank Benge 6x
Copy of a Mt Vernon 3C
This is a very typical problem. What is happening is, you are getting the note, but then you are letting your tongue level drop after initially getting the note.
I actually discovered that myself after posting! I was tonguing the note but the tongue was recoiling too far and the note was dropping with it. If I just push it forward more towards the teeth, presto, up it goes again.
Quote:
I want to commend you on your enthusiasm and initial success with the CG method. Now stick with it and let it all develop!
Thanks John! I think I'm just fortunate that I've been doing some of the things Gordon talks about... namely 'anchor tonguing' and tongue arch. I think the missing piece was in wind power, so adding that it feels like a lot of the other elements are falling into place.
Got lots of stuff to work on, but it's a promising start!
I'll get a skype lesson from one of the Gordon Teachers soon just to get a professional opinion on what I'm doing.
---
Question time... Unrelated to SA but vibrato: Is there a "right" way to do it? My vibrato has always been an air-driven vibrato, like when singing, the air just pulses a bit and the result is a vibrato.
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I assume this is what he is after?
