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JRoyal
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 Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| J. Crowley wrote: | | Geez. I knew I'd take heat but sheesh. I'm not allowed to have an opinion?! I simply don't like quoting. I find it distracting. I'm not telling you not to like it, I'm just saying I don't like it. |
Then why not state your opinion in a polite, respectful manner. You state your idea in a near hyperbole/extreme then say fall back too"gee , can't little old I , have an opinion too"...
what a bunch of crap. |
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Rubo
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted because my comment was lame.
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| JRoyal wrote: | | J. Crowley wrote: | | Geez. I knew I'd take heat but sheesh. I'm not allowed to have an opinion?! I simply don't like quoting. I find it distracting. I'm not telling you not to like it, I'm just saying I don't like it. |
Then why not state your opinion in a polite, respectful manner. You state your idea in a near hyperbole/extreme then say fall back too"gee , can't little old I , have an opinion too"...
what a bunch of crap. |
A bunch of crap? His original post was absolutely fine (at least for non-hyper sensitive types). He even gave props to Dexter before saying he had trouble listening to him because of his quoting tendencies.
I know some guys that feel exactly the same way as Crowley when it comes to quoting...mostly pretty creative improvisers. I also know some guys that utilize quotes in a pretty creative way and plenty of guys that merely plug quotes into their solos in the most inorganic fashion.
Anyway, pretty cool that some random TH guy took the time to criticize Crowley's music and post in this thread though. That's fun. |
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Rubo
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, quoting is audience specific. If the audience is hip enough to recognize the tune than cool, incorporate a taste, and nothing more. Recently, I considered quoting Clifford Brown's "The Blues Walk" in Route 66, but decided that the audience wouldn't get it, so I didn't. Quoting must work for the audience..
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jazz_trpt
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intrepidpooch
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:26 am Post subject: |
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I don't view quoting any different than playing any other vocabulary. That said, when someone quotes cheesy tunes in an obviously contrived manner I'd probably be the first one to roll my eyes. When you play a solo you're quoting language that you've picked up through listening to and/or transcribing classic solos, so essentially we're quoting all the time anyway. If you're truly playing what you hear, there's no difference (to me) between playing a ii-V lick from Freddie's solo on Birdlike and playing a quote of the melody to Laura--it's all just melody to me!
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jazz_trpt
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| intrepidpooch wrote: | | If you're truly playing what you hear, there's no difference (to me) between playing a ii-V lick from Freddie's solo on Birdlike and playing a quote of the melody to Laura--it's all just melody to me! |
Precisely.
A melodic fragment is a melodic fragment, whether it's a piece of a solo you memorized, or a part of a phrase from a tune you have memorized, or something you construct out of whole cloth.
The parallels between improvising and extemporaneous speech are instructive in this instance. We construct sentences via a combination of vocabulary and an understanding of the rules of grammar. How many of us go through the day and never utter a sentence that isn't informed by something we've heard, read, or said in the past?
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JRoyal
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | JRoyal wrote: | | J. Crowley wrote: | | Geez. I knew I'd take heat but sheesh. I'm not allowed to have an opinion?! I simply don't like quoting. I find it distracting. I'm not telling you not to like it, I'm just saying I don't like it. |
Then why not state your opinion in a polite, respectful manner. You state your idea in a near hyperbole/extreme then say fall back too"gee , can't little old I , have an opinion too"...
what a bunch of crap. |
A bunch of crap? His original post was absolutely fine (at least for non-hyper sensitive types). He even gave props to Dexter before saying he had trouble listening to him because of his quoting tendencies.
I know some guys that feel exactly the same way as Crowley when it comes to quoting...mostly pretty creative improvisers. I also know some guys that utilize quotes in a pretty creative way and plenty of guys that merely plug quotes into their solos in the most inorganic fashion.
Anyway, pretty cool that some random TH guy took the time to criticize Crowley's music and post in this thread though. That's fun. |
The bunch of crap I referring to is the figurative act of tossing a live grenade in the room, ( by his inflammatory choice of words). Then falling back to this "what,? little old me" act...so it is the way he is presenting his argument then back pedaling that I am criticizing. |
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ssbtrumpet1
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Joined: 24 Apr 2004
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Location: Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| I'm definitely playing the "ba da ba ba ba - I'm lovin' it" on my next gig. |
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homebilly
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: |
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I like to quote wrong notes 
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BeboppinFool
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Quoting Other Tunes |
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For me, a quote just falls out of the horn, kinda like the way you can't avoid a sudden sneeze. It just sorta happens and I don't have any control over it.
And if there is time to think about it before it passes through the horn, trying to stop it will likely stop the flow of ideas, so I don't worry about them.
Sometimes I hear the audience chuckle, occasionally a slight groan (usually from the drummer who's jealous he can't play melodies, anyway), but everybody goes home happy, so what's the big deal?
Remember when 'Trane quoted Rock A Bye Baby? If he could get away with it . . . .
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dershem
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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It depends a lot on the band, the room, and the mood. And while it can be a fun thing to do, to plant an idea and see where it goes, it can also, if not done carefully, go very P.D.Q. Bach, and get silly.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. You just have to know where to use it, and where not to. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Elevating one's self to John Coltrane status . . . hmmm . . .
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jazz_trpt
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: |
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[edited for civility]
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Last edited by jazz_trpt on Tue May 15, 2012 8:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| derby_mute wrote: | I think there have been musicians who could do it very skillfully. My opinion is if you can't do it with taste and skill, don't do it. The absolute, rock bottom, POS quote is "Sailor's Hornpipe." I've more than once left a performance when someone quoted that. Disgusting.
L |
That's it, I am switching to Popeye the Sailor Man
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TrentAustin
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: |
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I really do not like the negativity pointed towards Jon. He's a good cat, and sure, he could have worded his post a bit more effectively (I am not a fan of the word "Sucks") but we should remain civil and less hostile.
The great thing in this world is our ability to choose.
Be kind to your fellow trumpeters!
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veery715
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Brian Moon wrote: | | derby_mute wrote: | I think there have been musicians who could do it very skillfully. My opinion is if you can't do it with taste and skill, don't do it. The absolute, rock bottom, POS quote is "Sailor's Hornpipe." I've more than once left a performance when someone quoted that. Disgusting.
L |
That's it, I am switching to Popeye the Sailor Man |
I would prefer Popeye Goes the Weasel.
A question for some posters here: If you find a post objectionable, does that justify responding in kind? I am with Trent on this. Let's not do the Limbo. Raising the bar in terms of posting courtesy is where we need to go.
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veery715
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Anyone wishing a fuller discussion of the quoting tradition might dip into Paul Berliner's exhaustive (883 pages in paper) "Thinking in Jazz: The Infinite Art of Improvisation."
He goes into considerable detail about quoting musical ideas, giving examples of artists that regularly quote(d) the favorite licks of their predecessors as a kind of homage to them.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:38 am Post subject: |
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What if I string together a bunch of ii-IV-I exercises I've been practicing out of a book. Does that count as a quote? Or does it have to be something the average listener will recognize?
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Others may disagree but I make the distinction between a quote and a pattern, such as a ii-V-I from an excercise book. To me, a quote is recognizable as a phrase from a song, or as a lick that recalls another player's interptetation of a melody.
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