Doubling valve springs?

Multi-Instrumentalist · Regular Member Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Posts: 50

stay with me here,,,

I'm not rolling in dough to spend on one class of horn since i'm always finding a new instrument to learn so i'm not looking for answers about getting valves re-aligned or buying a new horn.

Has anybody ever experimented with valves with the spring on the inside of the valve, and then putting a second spring under (outside the valve) to double the resistance? it sounds good in theory but hopefully someone online has done this
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Crazy Finn · Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject:

Or you could just get stiffer springs.
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Multi-Instrumentalist · Regular Member Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Posts: 50

Crazy Finn · Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject:

I've got a 1927 King Liberty and I wouldn't hesitate to take the valves out to oil them, clean them, or fiddle around the springs.

If the horn is well maintained, it shouldn't be an issue.

If it's not, take it in for a cleaning. Then it should play AND work better.
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lgt0412 · Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject:

lgt0412 · Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject:

Most horns wouldn't take a spring under the piston. When compressed the spring would keep the piston from going all the way down. and even if you cut the spring to fit when compressed, most likely it would then be to short to fit snugly when the piston is not compressed. either way you would probably create alot of "metal on metal" noise if you did get the fit correct.

Greg
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zackh411 · Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject:

You could get some mello springs.
I always do flow studies and finger flexibility stuff on my old horn because I use mellophone springs in the valves.
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Multi-Instrumentalist · Regular Member Joined: 20 Apr 2012 Posts: 50

well it was a cheap old horn to start out with and i have no clue at the care it was given tho come to think of it i should probably get around to cleaning this horn and my picc
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Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5075

Plenty of horns have been bottom sprung then later top sprung. Seldom did anything bellow the pitons barrel cage area change so most of the piston under the now top sprung design was unchanged.

Now with that said their is no reason to add a bottom spring to a design that never used it. You can double up conventional coil springs inside the of the current spring location. You take two identical springs line them up about one coil space difference and gently push them together. Put one drop of oil on it to prevent any internal binding between the springs.

As too nicking the valve good grief how ham fisted would someone have to be in order to not be able to do something that simple. It is harder to get Cling Wrap on a plate neatly then it is to remove a trumpet valve! We let 5th grader's take their horns apart wash them and re-oil them. Plus it should be exceptionaly hard to put a nasty nick on monel,nickel or stainless steel piston even copper is fairly resistant to easily being gouged!
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cheiden · Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:52 am Post subject:

Actually it doesn't sound good in theory. Take out the bottom cap, depress the valve and see how much room there is for a fully collapsed spring...not much as I recall. To get any meaningful spring that collapses that small and still recovers to the right height while preserving a reasonably uniform feel won't likely be easy.

More common methods to increase spring tension are to replace the springs with new and/or stiffer ones or to stretch the old ones out. I don't recommend the latter since I've seen that introduce a bunch of spring noise.
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jon_norstog · Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:51 pm Post subject:

One of the trumpeters in this concert band I'm in was trying to learn trumpet on a Bundy Bach. He might just as well have been blowing into a garden hose. Plus his valves were hanging up. Couple weeks ago he showed me his fix: extra springs under the pistons. I tried it -- "man, you're gonna get carpaL tunnel from that!"

I dragged out an old King art deco Liberty and loaned it to him. He sounds a lot better, just as well 'cause he's sitting next to me. He wants to buy the horn but his family finances won't let him.

I'll probably lose that horn. But yeah, a second set of springs can sometimes be added under the pistons.

jn
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Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5075

Carpal Tunnel that is almost funny. I once heard some young guys complaining about how the Oil Cap on Mobil 1 jugs cut into the skin on their hands. Now had they been over 50 I might not have said much as skin does get thinner as ones Growth Hormone levels decline with age. Instead I made a coment about Geritol and extra Iron combined with "Man'ing Up". They used to make a device with adjustable spring tension specifically for trumpet player's. A lot of old time famous trumpet players endorsed it at one point or another.

In time the gouged portion should wear down at a faster rate then the material around. I would imagine a competent Tech could peen it down or mask off the other 99% of the valve and sand just the high spots down.

As much as I hate to admit it I once dropped a piston from about waste height. I cringed and had one of those slow motion Matrix like moments where time seemed to stand still. I twice got the tips of my finger's on it before hit hit but could not stop it. I think the fact that it hit thick kind of soft residential linoleum saved it. Not a nick, scratch, dent or ding. I have been around instruments since I was in 5th grade if talking brass and in all those years only once have a drooped a piston. So I just do not see this as a common thing that grown men would have happen often. In fact I would think cross threading would be a bigger issue and not cleaning the horn properly or often enough.

As to extending the life of the cap threads and such the best you hope to do is use a grease or oil that does not evaporate much on them like 3 in 1 or slide grease. I would imagine that as you thread the cap on their are never more then 3-4 threads bearing a load on a dry thread and at the top or bottom less then that. Keep in mind as well that copper, brass and bronze have some self lubricating properties that is why we use bronze for bushing. You have to remove the pistons from time to time to properly clean them.

Sorry if I was harsh but really it is bad enough most guys can not change their water key corks or felts the last thing we need is valve cap removal becoming something the average trumpet player is afraid to do out of fear!
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Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 4:54 am Post subject:

I tried adding bottom springs to one of my Conns as a cure for bouncy springs and the valve action was way too stiff with two springs. The extra springs fit fine with no binding or bottoming, but the "cure" was worse than the problem.
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etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 3963

If you are in a project mode, fit the horn with miniature solenoid actuators and use feather-light touch to work the solenoid contacts. You'll need some arm strength to hold the horn which will become heavier with all the works and batteries fitted.