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JRoyal
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 Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| geezer wrote: | | If you disagree with anything I said, then explain what you disagree with and why. |
Well, several attempts have already been made, you seem unable, or unwilling to read/understand what has been said.
The suggestions has been made that we are all really talking about the same thing, which is absolutely false.
Consider the following:
| Trumpeter Stephen Chenette discussing Arnold Jacobs wrote: |
A consensus of the instruction that I had from a number of well-meaning teachers and clinicians follows: expand the stomach when taking a breath, but don't raise the chest because the blowing muscles are down low. Before starting a note, make the stomach muscles very firm, and continue to push them out, or down, while playing. Take in only as much air as is needed to play the passage.
According to Arnold Jacobs, there is no reason not to take a full breath, which includes a naturalexpansion of the chest, because the respiratory muscles control all parts of the thoracic cavity (which contains the lungs). Taking as full a breath as is comfortable is recommended by Jacobs, because blowing is easiest when the lungs are full. The elasticity of the lungs, the pull of gravity on an elevated chest, and the torque of the ribs at their points of insertion supplement the action of the expiratory muscles. The less air there is in the lungs, the greater is the degree of effort required by the expiratory muscles to maintain a steady flow of air; this can have a negative effect on the tone and ease of playing. |
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| Quote: | Firming the abdominal muscles before starting a tone is both unnecessary and unwise, according to Jacobs. He has demonstrated that any degree of air flow can be started at the instant that it is needed, without any prior buildup. If the internal air is compressed before it is time for the note to begin, it must be prevented from reaching the embouchure by either blocking it with the tongue (which can cause a rough attack) or by closing the throat (closed throats can be recalcitrant about opening fully when it is time to play.) If the respiratory muscles are contracted without compressing the internal air, it shows that the inspiratory and expiratory muscles are in isometric contraction, pushing against each other rather than against the lungs. When it is time for the note to start, the inspiratory muscles will, to a sometimes considerable degree, continue to resist as the expiratory muscles try to decrease the size of the thoracic cavity. The problems this can cause show up most vividly in high and loud playing.
Air is exhaled only as the thoracic cavity decreases in size, and the only meaningful activity of the respiratory muscles is that which causes this to happen. Consciously trying to push out or down with the abdominal muscles while playing works against the physical necessities of the body, and causes a conflict between the conscious and subconscious mind (which knows exactly what must be done). |
And……
| Former CSO trumpeter Will Scarlet wrote: | Most students in Chicago eventually found their way to Jake's studio, whether to get help in blowing or to just have the experience of being checked out on all kinds of hospital or home-made breathing equipment. My turn came in 1956 when my own inefficiencies brought on by a former "tight gut" teacher led me to seek a better way to play. Little did I know that day would be the start of an association with Jacobs that continues to this very day as I write these words from his former studio……….There seemed to be no end to the brass player problems and combination of problems that came to his door. Many of them seemed rooted in some of the brass methods of the early 20th century that stated, "You must support your tone with your diaphragm." Most students, who later became teachers, interpreted this to mean "tighten something." Even today some teachers pass on this misinformation to another generation. The diaphragm is an involuntary muscle that functions when it receives a signal from the brain to move air into the lungs. Tightening something only restricts the free flow of air needed to vibrate the lips. Usually when something is tight down below, it has a parallel tightening effect up above in the mouth area. In addition, separate muscles allow us to inhale and exhale and both may be engaged at the same time. The set of muscles that pulls a little harder is the one that controls the direction of the airflow.
Many Brass Legends have this problem in varying degrees. In one word, this is called stiffness. Jake would say, "Remember, pressure doesn't make sound, wind does." All of these foolish problems are internal for the wind player and not easily seen or corrected as in a violin player's bow arm. |
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geezer
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| JRoyal wrote: | | geezer wrote: | | If you disagree with anything I said, then explain what you disagree with and why. |
Well, several attempts have already been made, you seem unable, or unwilling to read/understand what has been said. |
I said the above to "frenchtoaster", not to you. He was posing questions which implied that I was wrong without his specifiying in what way I was wrong.
So when I speak to "frenchtoaster" and you think that I am speaking to you, who is manifesting the comprehension problem?
Someone also has an inability to express his position properly.
First you said,
"Compress??? That is tension, a bad habit."
Then you changed that to,
"Your statement is that I am claiming that no tension or compression is needed, and that is pretty far from what I actually said."
???
Then you claimed that I was talking about holding one's breath before playing, which I never said at all.
You said, "I can find from people telling you not to set tension, or hold your breath before playing"
I then clarified with a quote from Reinhardt to show that the exhale should begin at precisely the end of the inhale, and the firming of the abdomen should only happen a split second before the exhale begins.
One should absolutely not hold one's breath before the initial attack.
Setting the abdominal firmness a split second before the initial attack does not involve "holding one's breath" (as you incorrectly characterized it).
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frenchtoaster
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| geezer wrote: | | If you disagree with anything I said, then explain what you disagree with and why. |
It's late, and the thread has been derailed enough. I'll just say that that's not how you teach a beginner to play a musical instrument. Instead of focusing on teaching the student what NOT to do, teach the student what TO do. Let the rest fix itself as much as it can.
Learning to set the correct abdominal tension before each note? C'mon.. |
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geezer
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| frenchtoaster wrote: | | geezer wrote: | | If you disagree with anything I said, then explain what you disagree with and why. |
It's late, and the thread has been derailed enough. I'll just say that that's not how you teach a beginner to play a musical instrument. Instead of focusing on teaching the student what NOT to do, teach the student what TO do. Let the rest fix itself as much as it can.
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Teaching a student what to do automatically entails also teaching the student what not to do.
Telling the student to assume good posture while playing means also telling the student not to slouch while playing.
Telling the student to use moderate mouthpiece pressure while playing also entails telling the student not to mash the mouthpiece against his lips while playing.
Telling the student to use a firm left-hand grip on the trumpet also entails telling the student to not use a left-hand vice-like death-grip on the trumpet.
Telling the student to breath fully also entails telling the student to not strain and over-fill the lungs.
| Quote: |
Learning to set the correct abdominal tension before each note? C'mon..
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The student merely needs to know that some abdominal firmness is needed for exhaling while playing, and the higher the note being attacked, the greater the abdominal firmness needed.
That's all that the beginning student needs to be told.
Months or even years of practice will automatically create the muscle memory that is needed for accurate attacks of notes in all ranges.
Setting the breathing mechanism a split-second before playing is just as necessary as setting the embouchure a split-second before playing.
Why would you tell the beginning student how to assume the proper embouchure but not tell that same student how to initiate the exhale attack that sets the embouchure in motion?
This is not "derailing the subject of this thread".
The thread is about come-back players trying to get rid of old bad habits.
And a major source of old bad habits is a teacher who did not properly warn the beginning student to stop doing bad things.
| Quote: |
Let the rest fix itself as much as it can.
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Many come-back players,such as the poster who created this thread, can attest to the fact that old bad habits do not fix themselves.
A teacher needs to correct the bad habit in the beginning student before the bad habit becomes ingrained in the student.
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uglylips
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| poochie wrote: | | Mr. Cichowicz once said to me " don't break old habits, make new ones!". |
This a great way to change your habits and it works.
I believe compression is always present and that it shouldn't be something we focus on when playing. Keeping the airstream relaxed and focusing on the music and sound, the body will automatically adjust compression as needed. |
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bg
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Overcoming Old Habits |
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| jhatpro wrote: |
I'm thinking about printing a card for my stand that reads: count, breathe, compress, play.
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...yes; and somewhere in there, firm the corners and keep them firm.
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Brad, absolutely!
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Overcoming Old Habits |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | I'm thinking about printing a card for my stand that reads: count, breathe, compress, play. |
I would say you really only need the breathe and play.
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StupidBrassObsession
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:26 am Post subject: |
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In performance I'd say go with this:
| Quote: | | I would say you really only need the breathe and play. |
In practice, it depends what you are working on I would think...
If you're working on scale etc you might want to use the trusty "BANG THOSE VALVES DOWN HARD" thing.
If you're working on lip motion you would probably want to focus on the lips contracting towards the mouthpiece when ascending and relaxing when descending...
If you're working on tongue arch you might want to focus on syllables.
If you're working on breathing, you might want to focus on posture etc
etc.
If you tried to develop good habits for each and every element simultaneously you would tie yourself in knots. Instead, when doing clarke, it might be: "Relaxed full breath; feel the lips contract towards mouthpiece to ascend and relax to descend; bang valves hard."
That's manageable. But if you start worrying about too much more at the same time, you'll explode me think.
| Quote: | | Teaching a student what to do automatically entails also teaching the student what not to do.
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Actually, NO IT DOESN'T. Sorry, I don't want to be contrary here, but this is not a good practice. The brain doesn't deal well with "don't do xyz". It doesn't properly understand negations. Why?
Because admonitions like "Don't slouch" don't help them understand what they SHOULD do.
To use an analogy, say you're trying to find your lost in space trying to find your way to pluto. You stop and ask some friendly aliens "Which way is pluto".
The aliens shrug and say "Not sure, but don't go that way," one of them points in a direction. "We came from there, and didn't see it."
Great so you don't go that direction. But you still haven't got a hope of finding pluto, all you have is where not to find pluto.
The same is true with the "Don't do this" approach to teaching. It's much more useful if the aliens (and all teachers are friendly aliens in a way) were to just point as say "Go that way, pluto is over there". Because then you will be headed in the right direction and wont bother to try the other infinity minus one directions that you would have had to explore before.
Again, I reiterate, the brain CAN NOT process "Do Not" as a command. It's like the old "Don't think of a pink elephant"... $100 bucks said you just thought of one, right? There's been quite a lot of research done in this area of psychology.
There are a lot of other postures besides "Slouched" that are not conducive to brass playing as well. If you take the "Do not" approach you have to work through all of the wrong ways. IF you take the "Do it like this" approach, you go straight to the right way.
Affirmative direction isn't optional where teaching is concerned, it is absolutely essential.
(Fyi, I don't teach trumpet, I teach music theory, orchestration and composition but the same applies.)
Sorry for the long off-topic post. |
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JRoyal
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Geezer,
There are two or three different ideas of compression, so yes some of my answers have been purposely vague, mainly in an attempt to avoid what this has become. You keep latching on to one, out of two things, I state without considering the context and the comment as a whole.
You said:
| geezer wrote: | Muscles in the torso must push upward to form air compression.
…..
When first learning to play trumpet, the player must consciously try to set the proper abdominal tension level for each entry note.
After months or years of practice have caused the body to learn the proper tension level for every entry note, muscle memory takes over and the proper tension level for each entry note becomes automatic without the player even thinking about it.
…..
When I was being taught trumpet 40 years ago, the above things were standard teachings everyplace I ever heard of. |
I have clarified many times:
| jroyal wrote: | | Obviously the body tightens in various ways while we play to make up the difference. My beef is this idea of consciously setting a predetermined tension. To set tension prior to playing will inhibit flow, which is the source of vibration. The body is quite capable of regulating our air flow on its own without us consciously manipulating on top of that, plus the human body does not have the capacity to judge that by feel anyway. |
You continue to argue isolated statements out of context, while ignoring the context and arguments presented that disagree with your statements and have yet to address any comments/reasons that contradict your position.
If you insist on continuing this debate could you actually address the reason I have listed as to why the manner you describe is a bad idea instead of misquoting, quibbling, and largely ignoring what you don't like. |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: |
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This thread is starting to remind me of Robert Caro's multi-volume biography of Lyndon Johnson for which Caro spent more time researching and writing about LBJ's life than LBJ took to live it.
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JRoyal
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | This thread is starting to remind me of Robert Caro's multi-volume biography of Lyndon Johnson for which Caro spent more time researching and writing about LBJ's life than LBJ took to live it. |
I agree 100%. |
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | This thread is starting to remind me of Robert Caro's multi-volume biography of Lyndon Johnson for which Caro spent more time researching and writing about LBJ's life than LBJ took to live it. |
I often find it better to read the reviews rather than the book.
| Quote: | | The Los Angeles Times reviewer called it Caro's best while Entertainment Weekly graded it an A-. But Erik Nelson in Salon called the book "bloated," writing that it "cries out for the Ghost of William Shawn and a red pencil. How can a book take 10 years of obsessive work and still seem sloppy?" |
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geezer
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| StupidBrassObsession wrote: |
Again, I reiterate, the brain CAN NOT process "Do Not" as a command.
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8 of the "10 Commandments" are "do not".
1.You shall have no other gods before me.
2.You shall not make for yourself any carved image...
3.You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain...
4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...
5.Honor your father and your mother...
6.You shall not murder.
7.You shall not commit adultery.
8.You shall not steal.
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10.You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife...
Then there are secular laws such as
No right turn on red.
No passing on this stretch of road.
No buying or selling illegal drugs.
No trespassing.
No hunting on posted land.
No shooting bald eagles.
No public nudity.
No groping.
No driving while drunk.
No selling in the Trade or Trial thread.
No discussing religion in Trumpet Herald.
No posting long lists that bore people to tears 
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richardwy
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:24 am Post subject: |
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I've read the last volume and reading his last. Anyone else?
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Bill Dishman
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:57 am Post subject: Old Habits |
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This thread seems to have degenerated into a battle of verbiage.
Being an Arnold Jacobs proponent I take him at his word...
To fix "bad" (old) habits one must develop "good" (new) ones.
Whatever camp you might be in regarding compression, flow etc. you must develop new habits to replace the ones you want to change.
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kanemania
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
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A bit off topic, maybe, but I've read all of Robert Caro's work, and I think his series on LBJ is extraordinary. I'm convinced that every man of my generation should read these books; they've deepened my understanding of events that, for better or worse, have shaped my world and my life. Yes, they're big books, and they may not be to everyone's taste. But few works of art are.
FWIW. IMHO. |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Caro's study of LBJ is all about power, which brings it back to trumpet playing!
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JRoyal
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | Caro's study of LBJ is all about power, which brings it back to trumpet playing! |
Well, LBJ did give interviews, and talk with staffers, while he was on the toilet, which is the only place you could use the level ..uh muscular involvement that some seem to advocate here. |
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geezer
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| JRoyal wrote: | | jhatpro wrote: | | Caro's study of LBJ is all about power, which brings it back to trumpet playing! |
Well, LBJ did give interviews, and talk with staffers, while he was on the toilet, which is the only place you could use the level ..uh muscular involvement that some seem to advocate here. |
Billy Graham was saying grace at a White House dinner.
President Johnson bellowed, "Talk louder, Billy, I can't hear you!"
Billy Graham responded, "I wasn't speaking to you, Mr. President."
And Johnson would say to visitors, "Wanna hear my dark bark?"
Then he would pick up a beagle by the ears, causing the dog to bark.
And Johnson always hated the Kennedy family.
When John Kennedy was killed, it was just a matter of hours before Johnson's people had Kennedy's stuff removed from the Oval Office and stashed in the hallway.
Jackie Kennedy was reportedly shocked when she saw her dead husband's stuff already stacked in the hallway.
And Johnson was infamous for how he rigged his 1948 election back in Texas.
Then Johnson opposed the 1957 Civil Rights Act.
Regardless of whether one hated or liked Johnson, he was an interesting character to study.
To keep this on-topic for Trumpet Herald, Johnson liked to blow his own horn.
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Last edited by geezer on Mon May 21, 2012 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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