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geezer
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 Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: critics of Reinhardt |
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I don't know who this person is or how his Web page got saved on my computer, but apparently he is a Claude Gordon fan.
https://www.purtle.com/jeff-brass-frequently-asked-questions
Here is the funny part.
"Should I use a high note embouchure? (i.e. lower lip tucked in)
NO! This is a very bad thing to get into. That will hinder your flexibility and sound over the entire range of the horn."
But farther down the page he says that we should emulate Maynard Ferguson (a down-streamer who tucked in the lower lip) and Bud Brisbois and Andrea Tofanelli (both up-streamers who tucked in the upper lip).
He also says to all players, "Set the mouthpiece on the red of the lower lip, with at least 2/3 on the top lip", although Bud Brisbois and Andrea Tofanelli would find such a placement impossible to play with.
I am not trying to mock or disrespect the person who hosted that Web page.
I am sure that he is sincere and he means well.
But I am saddened when people criticize Reinhardt's teachings although they apparently don't understand Reinhardt's teachings.
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bagmangood
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| He's a regular contributor to TH, and a well known CG teacher |
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geezer
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| bagmangood wrote: | | He's a regular contributor to TH, and a well known CG teacher |
I don't want to start a flame war with him or about him.
We will agree to disagree about the teachings on that Web page.
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EdMann
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff's one of the good guys, and his teachings are more in line with Gordon than Reinhardt, so there's logic in his pedagogy matching up poorly with another.
ed |
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my favorite part:
"The whole idea of a mouthpiece being an individual thing for each person is a product of commercial hype since the 1930s to promote the sale of more mouthpieces. Before that time mouthpieces were not sized." |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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And this:
"When someone is playing correctly the resistance comes from the arched tongue inside the mouth"
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BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| EdMann wrote: | | Jeff's one of the good guys, and his teachings are more in line with Gordon than Reinhardt, so there's logic in his pedagogy matching up poorly with another. |
Yes, it's totally understandable that we have differences, and that's fine.
Jeff's booth at ITG was right across from mine, and we got to talk many times. Jeff is one of the good guys, as Ed said, and I like him. So, big deal if we disagree on teaching approaches, that's fine.
This one thing on the page cited in the OP caught my eye:
| On Jeff Purtle's website, Jeff wrote: | | Don’t forget “Big Breath, Chest Up”. That is the number one thing to remember. |
Yes, Doc would have a fit. But if we continue to simply espouse what Doc taught (take in only as much air as you need and don't raise your shoulders when you breathe) and keep getting results without flipping out about what others say to the contrary, eventually some others will see that we make sense and come on over and join us.
A feud is pointless and fruitless. Poking fun isn't any better, although getting a laugh at someone else's expense does have that tempting moment of mischievous satisfaction that's not always easy to resist. I know this first hand.
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PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, Rich! Humane and sensible posting on TH? WTF?!?
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BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| PH wrote: | | Wow, Rich! Humane and sensible posting on TH? WTF?!? |
Hey, I got to "smoke the peace pipe" with a ton of guys at ITG. Call it a life-changing event.
How come I didn't see you there, Pat?
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| BeboppinFool wrote: |
This one thing on the page cited in the OP caught my eye:
| On Jeff Purtle's website, Jeff wrote: | | Don’t forget “Big Breath, Chest Up”. That is the number one thing to remember. |
Yes, Doc would have a fit. But if we continue to simply espouse what Doc taught (take in only as much air as you need and don't raise your shoulders when you breathe) |
I tell ya, there are 2 things here that I've violated, and have paid for both mistakes. First, I was started via Claude's Systematic approach. Now if you're looking to play with finesse, and don't require a long phrase nor a lot of volume I definitely find Doc's approach immensely helpful. But where power is needed, a good tankful of air is my best friend; however, relax still doesn't mean collapse! As that air tank runs empty, collapsing the chest, letting the shoulders hunch together and forward, is just wrong. Maintaining posture indeed activates the blowing muscles better, the way they were designed to function.
There's room in my repertoire for both the above concepts to be applied ... and I wish teachers had been sticklers about it right off the bat! |
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jwilson46
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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If it works for you that's great!!! If you are above high C and you should ever get dizzy or lightheaded and your breathing posture is correct, try using less air.
John |
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StupidBrassObsession
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, Doc would have a fit. But if we continue to simply espouse what Doc taught (take in only as much air as you need and don't raise your shoulders when you breathe) |
I'm working with the C.G stuff right now and it is working very well for my playing.
I do want to point out here, however, that the instruction is "chest up" not "shoulders up". I think there is an important difference there.
If you watch some claude gordon students playing (Like John Mohan's video he posted just the other day) you will notice that they don't raise the shoulders when they play. They have the shoulders in a good-postured way that opens the chest cavity.
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Also, from what I understand about the material and the C.G teaching approach, when it comes to the instructions about things like mouthpiece placement, they are a starting place, not a destination. And in the case of what you have quoted, he is talking about if you were to restart learning the instrument with a different embouchure. Gravity will make the mouthpiece slide down to find it's "legs" but it will never make it slide up if you start by placing too low.
And we all know, the final determiner for all teachers, Reinhardt, Gordon, Adams, Smiley, whoever, is whether it works well, and whether it is healthy.
| Quote: | "Should I use a high note embouchure? (i.e. lower lip tucked in)
NO! This is a very bad thing to get into. That will hinder your flexibility and sound over the entire range of the horn."
But farther down the page he says that we should emulate Maynard Ferguson (a down-streamer who tucked in the lower lip) and Bud Brisbois and Andrea Tofanelli (both up-streamers who tucked in the upper lip). |
I think what Jeff is talking about avoiding by "lower lip tucked in" is a straight out Reinhardt Type III embouchure. It works fine on Trombone as Reinhardt was one himself, but on trumpet the player will normally end up as a IIIA or IIIB but if they try and play like a straight III they will have limitations.
Etc...
Again, I think this is yet another mis-understanding that is based on nomenclature or people's inability to accurately describe trumpet playing in a language that everyone will understand absolutely.
| Quote: | | But I am saddened when people criticize Reinhardt's teachings although they apparently don't understand Reinhardt's teachings. |
I'm saddened when people criticise Gordon's/Purtle's teachings although they apparently don't understand Gordon's/Purtle's teachings.
Okay, maybe I'm being a smart alec a bit, but we all suffer from the same problem. We all think we are right, and we all think the other person is wrong. In many things it's not black and white like that. There are different ways of doing things. If they both work, then who cares about the differences. And history has Shown both Reinhardt and Gordon to work. |
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StupidBrassObsession
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
"The whole idea of a mouthpiece being an individual thing for each person is a product of commercial hype since the 1930s to promote the sale of more mouthpieces. Before that time mouthpieces were not sized." |
I think the point is look at guys like Arturo. If you're playing well and are well developed, you can do almost anything you want with the same mouthpiece.
Yes, a mouthpiece helps with colours etc but when you're developing, just pick a mouthpiece and stick with it and save the money for lessons. When you can play like Arturo, then you can start playing with mouthpieces  |
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jwilson46
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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I think you are right. I've played 7 mouthpieces in my career. I remember reading an interview with the Principal Brass of the CSO. Herseth made a comment that "Doc Severinsen always sounds like Doc Severinsen no matter what he is playing on.
John |
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StupidBrassObsession
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| StupidBrassObsession wrote: | | Quote: |
"The whole idea of a mouthpiece being an individual thing for each person is a product of commercial hype since the 1930s to promote the sale of more mouthpieces. Before that time mouthpieces were not sized." |
I think the point is look at guys like Arturo. If you're playing well and are well developed, you can do almost anything you want with the same mouthpiece.
Yes, a mouthpiece helps with colours etc but when you're developing, just pick a mouthpiece and stick with it and save the money for lessons. When you can play like Arturo, then you can start playing with mouthpieces |
Edit: I just found where the quote comes from in the faq's:
| Quote: | The whole idea of a mouthpiece being an individual thing for each person is a product of commercial hype since the 1930s to promote the sale of more mouthpieces. Before that time mouthpieces were not sized.
Correct practice is the big issue. |
The "correct practice is the big issue" was left out of the original quotation. |
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Of course... but where did this stuff about no individual sizing before the 1930's come from? That's just not true. |
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