Does a shepherd's crook REALLY matter?

[Venturi]

Many great cornets have a shepherd's crook, and many cornets don't.

Does the shepherd's crook truly confer improved sound . . . or is it just another variation on the theme? Does it have more visual significance than acoustical significance, or does is really enhance the cornet sound?

[nieuwguyski]

There is absolutely no agreement on this. IMO, all other variables staying the same, the only thing the crook does is shorten the horn, putting the sound closer to your ears and changing the feedback to the player. The player then responds to this different feedback by playing differently, so a short cornet sounds different to the listener.

YOMV (your opinion may vary).
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

[ConnArtist]

The more horns I try, the more convinced I am... that the crook is not at all the important ingredient. Conical bore for sure is, amongst other things (like bell taper, materials, fit and finish, etc.) Many talk of the bell being closer to the player... which certainly affects approach, but from the audience side of the horn, other bell styles can sound great too. It all really comes down to what the cornet player likes to have in their hands to make the sounds they want to make.

Sometimes it seems to me the crook is mostly a conventional look that sheeples expect to see before they will admit the horn sounds great. It would be fun to do a ton of recordings and surprise folks with which cornets they think sound best.

But sure... once tooled up to make fantastic cornets with the same design a factory has used for decades... continuing to use that form is a perfectly valid reason to make excellent playing and sounding cornets that have a shepherd's crook!
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"Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1971 Coprion Director cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10
c. 1960s? Steenhuysen Flugel
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML

[Comeback]

ConnArtist wrote:

[GenoValet]

[shofarguy]

It's been my experience that larger radius bends delay the shift to edginess in timbre. I've heard it in flugelhorn and I expect it to be the case in cornet. The more open the wrap, the more energy must be put into the horn to get it to "light up."

Think of the old pea-shooter trumpets and how the tight wrap made them sound and respond. Compare that with a French horn. Yeah I know, apples and tea cups...

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[ChopsGone]

With the right mouthpiece and the right approach, I can get a convincing true cornet sound from my Olds Recording and Super Recording cornets. But when playing a cornet with a shepherd's crook, it just seems to come naturally. I can't begin to explain why, but I'm hooked on the shepherd's crook designs.
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[etc-etc]

The crook is a throwback to the Stoelzel valve cornopeans that had the bell connected to the bottom of the valve. The effects range from changing the player's posture to collection of spit at crook's bottom.

[RandyTX]

I know this may be a bit of sacrilege, but I think it's 95% mouthpiece, and 5% or less in the wrap.

I suspect if we took two equal quality cornets, one "long", one shepherd's crook, and had the same player record on both cornets, using the same mouthpiece, many, if not all of you, would have a very hard time telling which cornet was being used.

That said, cornets are cool, and come in an almost infinite variety of wraps, all of them more interesting than a trumpet, so you can't have too many.

P.S. I think the whole "conical bore" argument has been overused for half a century or more. The truth is in a lot of modern instruments, trumpets are more conical than some cornets, and neither are all that conical anyway. But, it makes a great story when trying to explain what a cornet is to somebody that doesn't know. Only problem is, it's quite often not true.

http://robbstewart.com/Essays/Trumpet_Schmumpet_abridged.htm

http://robbstewart.com/Essays/TrumpetSchmumpet.html

[tommy t.]

[loudog]

[lmf]

Do shepherd's crook model cornets sound different than long model cornets? Some say the sound is different while others say it is not. We are told that the choice of mouthpiece makes a difference in sound. Others say that the player who has developed the ability to play with a "rich" sound will continue to play that way no matter what type of cornet they choose to play. Could it be that sound is "subjective" when comparing long model and shepherd's crook cornets?

I enjoy playing my Conn 28A/38A Connstellation Long Model cornet. It plays wondefully, but to me it sounds more brilliant when using a cup mouthpiece. I've noticed that when I use a DW cornet mouthpiece the Conn sounds more mellow. I use a Bach 12C or Bach 7C.

I enjoy playing my Blessing Artist 141S Shepherd's Crook Cornet. I like the sound it makes which appears more "mellow." I use DW 3, 4, 4B mouthpieces when playing the Blessing Artist Short model cornet with shepherd's crook. However, if one plays this cornet with a cup mouthpiece the sound may appear more brilliant. I play it with DW mouthpieces because the sound projected seems more "cornet-like" to my ears. It may be a subjective thing. I admit that I enjoy playing the shepherd's crook cornet more.

Best wishes,

Lloyd

[Dale Proctor]

[harleyt26]

The shepherds crook is a traditional look for a cornets design but there cornets without the crook that sound as good as those with one. My Conn 36A Concert Grand has as dark and mellow a cornet tone as any cornet I have heard.
I have two shepherds crook cornets that sound great but not better than the 36A.
I don't have a short cornet like the ones Mr. Proctor has so I cannot compare them.
So in my opinion the crook has less to do with the sound than other factors in the design of a cornet.

Tom

[Dale Proctor]

[jazz_trpt]

I like the shepherd's crook because it brings the bell closer to me. It also thus contributes to a little more compact balance of the horn.

The tone of the horn is most affected by the bell flare, not the wrap per se, tho the flare is often part of the wrap.

The differences between various horns are too great to try to attribute a significant change in sound/response to a single design component of one horn, IMO.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! :: Jazz Mayhem CD

[roynj]

What opened my eyes (ears) to the sound quality of a cornet was when I had the chance to experiment with various different lead pipes as offered by Smith Watson on their Soloist cornet. Man the lead pipe is what controls the sound of the thing, for sure. So I would say that the sound character of any given cornet is mainly in the front end (mouthpiece and leadpipe) and less on the bell end. However, the point made earlier about the fact that the bell is closer to the player's ears does "matter" to the player. I happen to prefer the shepards crook style cornets for this very reason. I believe that brass historians will say that the bell crook was to shorten the horn to allow players to sit closer to the music stands, which is needed if one is playing with a band on a small stage. But as for sound difference, I would defy anyone to pass a blind test of identical horns (one with crook, one without). I'm guessing it's a 50/50 proposition.

[Crazy Finn]

[jon_norstog]

I like a crookie. I like the way they balance, for one thing. I've got a few cornets and how they sound depends on how I blow them. That said, I think the companies that made crookies were going for a certain sound. And I think that sound was different from what the American cornet makers were after. At least by the 1920's.

jn
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toot, toot!

[Tom K.]

Crooks matter!

and,

I am not a crook!

and,

Too many crooks spoil the soup!
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"At the round earth's imagined corners, blow
Your trumpets, angels" -John Donne

40s Conn 22B
50s Olds Ambassador
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00s Bach 72*