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Irving
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 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| If you can "play every note and miss them all", is the converse true as well? |
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EdMann
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I don't get nostagic for any old days, I get hungry for the new ones. Way to post, Jim!
ed |
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Jay Lichtmann
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Whenever I hear someone long for how much better it was "in the old days," no matter what the subject, I listen with half an ear. It seems to me that this type of thinking often borders on the delusional, blocking out all that was intolerable and only remembering the highlights.
I am reminded of this quote by the sports writer Samuel Abt on the great cyclist Eddy Merckx in his book "Breakaway" 1985:
"In his retirement he had become that most dreaded of athletes, the one who always remembered how much better it was in his day, when ships were wooden and men were iron, not visa versa, the way it was now."
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poochie
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Location: New Jersey,so what!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Irving, yes it is ,but it still sounds like crap.
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Adam V
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Jay Lichtmann wrote: | Whenever I hear someone long for how much better it was "in the old days," no matter what the subject, I listen with half an ear. It seems to me that this type of thinking often borders on the delusional, blocking out all that was intolerable and only remembering the highlights.
I am reminded of this quote by the sports writer Samuel Abt on the great cyclist Eddy Merckx in his book "Breakaway" 1985:
"In his retirement he had become that most dreaded of athletes, the one who always remembered how much better it was in his day, when ships were wooden and men were iron, not visa versa, the way it was now." |
I see what you're saying, but I think in this thread we're comparing the best of the past with the best of today. Of course we're focusing on the highlights, but I highly doubt anyone here believes that everyone was good back in the day... |
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MrClean
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | If you can "play every note and miss them all", is the converse true as well? |
Nope.
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trombahonker
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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This is an interesting conversation. There are a few things I'd like to ramble about, most of which have been said already.
Concerning solo recordings, I think it is dreadfully unfair of anyone to compare the "what has been" and "what is now." The availability of record labels to produce classical music, especially solo, is incomparable to what it has been, and the market for CDs is a minor fraction. Big labels have little interest in producing solo classical albums, especially of trumpeters. Consider Mr. Hooten's CD - and this is assumption on my part - It's probably an independently developed album, likely funded and produced entirely by the artist. Studio time, pianist, production, marketing, etc, all either from the pocket of the soloist, or from a menial grant. So if there is some "playing it safe", consider that they probably only had a couple days of time blocked out to create the final recordings for the entire album, likely mixed in to schedules loaded with other commitments. Contrast this to recordings produced by RCA and Deutsche in the 70s in terms of financing and studio time alone, and it makes me applaud anyone who is able to produce a high-quality album.
As for orchestras, there is a lot of "how they used to sound" talked of here, but as a young player who has grown up listening to what many of you are calling "modern trumpet playing", having no live experience with "how it used to sound", I really find it hard to understand this "homogenization of playing." All of the great orchestras I've heard live (probably ~30) have sounded dramatically different, and not just the brass sections. Every orchestra has its own color, dynamic, and character, and nearly all of the "principal trumpeters", as if they're the most important element, have been enjoyable and unique in some way.
Now, do orchestras seem to sound "more alike" than they used to (as heard by me only only via recordings)? Sure, if alike means "more in tune, together, and united in quality". Are the brass sections more reserved? I don't think so - but they are more sensitive.
Further, how many of the "old time" recordings were produced by orchestras entirely populated by musicians admitted via audition panels? Any musician who is serious about getting a job knows the admission bar is set by the quality of playing everyone knows is possible, and that it has to be reproducible on the spot in an audition before getting a job. To my ear, the "quality revolution" in orchestras is due to that more than anything. Have those auditions made players so perfect that they're "boring" or "dull" or "unimaginative"...maybe some, but I'm pretty sure those aren't the people who are winning auditions and sitting in orchestras. Sure, you have to play in tune, in time, and most of the right notes, which is hard as hell, but you have to be brilliant to win because those are the people the panelists want to sit beside, even if the orchestra is programming the same 50 works every year.
Lastly, there are soooo many types of white rice, all so wonderfully and subtly different. If you're always pouring jambalaya over top though, you'll probably never experience those nuances. I rather like my rice unfettered some times...and with jambalaya others. Just because the meal isn't outrageously spiced, doesn't mean it isn't delicious.
Last edited by trombahonker on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rockford
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: New breed of orchestral trumpet player |
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| mahler32 wrote: | | I have come to the realization that personality and the "individual" is being taken out of the orchestral trumpeter. Gone are the days of principal trumpet players who mowed down the winds section and guffawed at the conductors.
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With all the audio and video resources we have today it's possible to watch and listen to many nationally recognized orchestras and players and also lesser known individuals and orchestras too. I hear a lot of pretty darn good and interesting playing out there and a lot of different approaches to the same pieces even when comparing the same orchestras and players from different time periods or with different conductors. Maybe there's a player or two out there that's bored with the day to day job of orchestral trumpet playing, but that's hardly an industry standard situation. So, basically, I disagree with the premise.
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: |
Have those auditions made players so perfect that they're "boring" or "dull" or "unimaginative"...maybe some.
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Don't worry; there are still enough clams to open a sea food store.
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Lichtmann wrote: | | Whenever I hear someone long for how much better it was "in the old days," no matter what the subject, I listen with half an ear. It seems to me that this type of thinking often borders on the delusional . . . |
Rubbish, if not somewhat offensive.
We know that there has always been a tendency for people as they get older to look to the past with fondness, the present coming up somewhat short in their memories. But it's also entirely possible to be very much forward thinking, while using the entire scope of one's experiences, past and present, as the foundation for a broad perspective. There are those who, as they age, who broaden, not narrow, their outlook.
Regarding part of this thread's theme, I can assure you that there is nothing delusional when I say that I prefer to be able to listen to an orchestra and immediately identify its sound, phrasing, and interpretation as characteristically French or German, for example. For me it was more interesting, more varied. Actually, more fun. And in some ways, more informative, musically.
An analogy - used to be a time when most shops were privately owned. When they were all different. They reflected the personality of the owners. There was greater variety in atmosphere and even the visual from one shop to another. Now a mall is a mall is a mall. Is preferring the former, in shops or in music, "bordering on the delusional"? Mercy!
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: New breed of orchestral trumpet player |
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| MrClean wrote: | | I doubt very much that either Phil, Mike or Chris walk into a rehearsal or concert with the intent to "mow down a wind section" or "guffaw at a conductor's palm". Good way to find yourself looking for a new job... |
 Those were my thoughts upon reading that
| MrClean wrote: |
he pours all of himself into each performance and cares very deeply about what is getting out front. There is no "phoning it in" here. |
This is what audiences everywhere want to see, from the most casual listener to the ... well maybe critics are alienated from this, but everybody else.
I think maybe part of what contributes to the OP's observation, is this idea that has become so prevalent of "being an all-around player." Specializing, is what people want to hear. Louis Armstrong wasn't particularly ready to take any gig that came down the pike, just as one example. Sure I envy the guys that can do justice to whatever's thrown at them, but often it's not the same thing as wringing every drop of music out of a piece ... |
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mahler32
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, some great discussions going on here and I think we're getting somewhere. I have had the opportunity yesterday and today to hear some of the very people we're talking about here at the National Brass Symposium. Some of these guys have a sound that blows me away! Mike Sachs has the biggest sound on an Eb trumpet I've ever heard! Chris Martin just sings through his horn! On the other hand I just don't get why some folks drool over a couple of these guys playing when they bore me to tears. I can't help but think that the reasons they are where they are is because they are machines that miss far less than everyone else and/or have a generic/vanilla sound that isn't going to stand out. When I say stand out I don't mean stand out in a bad way. I mean stand out in a way that is identifiable and unique but still fitting within the boundaries of good taste.
MrClean, you said: "I can't help feel that some of this criticism is aimed squarely at one of my colleagues"
Why do you feel this way? Does it mean you're hearing the same thing I'm hearing? I know first hand that they are not "phoning it in". I never wanted to insinuate that these guys don't care what they sound like. I'm just trying to figure out why orchestras are hiring guys/gals at a feverish pace with, in my opinion, bland and boring sounds.
You bring up many great points that I agree with but I still think that the individual personality that made many of our favorite players who they are/were is being pushed aside for a homogeneous, colorless sound. Does it have anything to do with a flamboyant, rock star type conductor that won't tolerate a big personality (sound wise) in their orchestra? I honestly don't know.
On a much bigger scale I believe that individualism is becoming more and more frowned upon in our society and maybe this is creeping into the orchestral world. Maybe it crept in a while ago and we're just too dang soft of a people to do anything about it. I know...... that last sentence might not sit well with some folks 
P.S. "feverish pace" is definitely an over statement! We'd all have orchestra jobs if this was the case. But you know what I'm sayin...... well, some of you do. |
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I_play_trmpt
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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"David Bilger, Thomas Hooten, Steve Hendrickson, Mark Hughes, Manny Laureano, Paul Randall, Tim Rolfs, George Vosburgh"
"It's funny because one of these gentlemen was the main culprit in my tirade
I had to turn off his latest album a while back when I heard it for the first time. It was white rice and I wanted gumbo!"
Only one of these players has recently put out an album, ding ding ding, I wonder who you are talking about...
"Why do you feel this way? Does it mean you're hearing the same thing I'm hearing?
You have told us (without coming out and telling us) who's playing you don't like, and now you have the audacity to call out Jim Wilt on TH? really?
This is one of the most idiotic threads I have seen on here. Calling out top level professionals behind an anonymous screen name is just childish and immature. Grow up, and get rid of the chip on your shoulder. These people are in the positions they are in for a reason, if you can't hear it perhaps you should re-evaluate your career choice. |
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MrClean
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I_play_trmpt wrote: | "David Bilger, Thomas Hooten, Steve Hendrickson, Mark Hughes, Manny Laureano, Paul Randall, Tim Rolfs, George Vosburgh"
"It's funny because one of these gentlemen was the main culprit in my tirade
I had to turn off his latest album a while back when I heard it for the first time. It was white rice and I wanted gumbo!"
Only one of these players has recently put out an album, ding ding ding, I wonder who you are talking about...
"Why do you feel this way? Does it mean you're hearing the same thing I'm hearing?
You have told us (without coming out and telling us) who's playing you don't like, and now you have the audacity to call out Jim Wilt on TH? really?
This is one of the most idiotic threads I have seen on here. Calling out top level professionals behind an anonymous screen name is just childish and immature. Grow up, and get rid of the chip on your shoulder. These people are in the positions they are in for a reason, if you can't hear it perhaps you should re-evaluate your career choice. |
This.
If I felt this way, I would not have voted (quite enthusiastically) to offer him the job.
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kylesherman
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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kjkh
Last edited by kylesherman on Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kylesherman
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| no, seriously, what are you thinking? |
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AverageJoe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Wow...  I have to laugh at this thread, and with Jim's restraint!
LA Phil is a BLESSED place right now. I expect an early tenure offer, if it is possible...
Paul
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Windpattern
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: New breed of orchestral trumpet player |
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| mahler32 wrote: | I have come to the realization that personality and the "individual" is being taken out of the orchestral trumpeter. Gone are the days of principal trumpet players who mowed down the winds section and guffawed at the conductors palm.
Principal players sounds are sterile and bland to my ears. I'm not talking about the Phil Smith's and Mike Sachs and Chris Martin's of the world. I'm speaking of a few current players in major orchestra's. I just don't get it! Every note is perfectly placed and spot on pitch but soulless as a turnip. Is this the conductor's fault for wanting to hire a robot that never misses or are trumpet players losing the ego and bravado that once gained them reputations?
I'm sorry to vent but was just wondering if I was the only one......and I'm never the only one  |
While I disagree with basically everything that mahler32 is saying and insenuating, and I completely cannot relate to his taste in what good trumpet playing is; I do agree that ego and bravado are important to a principal trumpet player. It doesn't mean you want to compromise your other colleague's contributions(wind players), or disrespect your conductor. What I see is the lack of people wanting to be "the man", like the basketball player wanting the last shot. That is the typical trumpet player stereotype and I think it is useful. Of course no one these days wants to be seen as the meat headed trumpet player, but to play principal you kind of need an attitude. You can't just be a left brained person who has solved the trumpet problem. You need to have a lot of confidence that your point of view is worthwhile. Confidence can be misconstrued as cockiness but who cares. Music isn't a science, it's an art.
So I agree that trumpet players need to have an ego. I just disagree that any of the players that have been mentioned don't have that fire. |
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MrClean
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Look, everyone has just as much right to their opinion as anybody, regardless of where they work. You asked for discourse, and you certainly got it.
In regards to ego, I will vouch for Tom and say he's got no problem in that department - no lack of confidence there (glad I could have your back, Tom) .
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trumpetchops
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