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Should a Non-buzzer practice buzzing?

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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5644
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:43 pm Post subject:

Pops wrote:

We play pedals with relaxed lips that are usually somewhat rolled out. We play high on lips that are usually somewhat rolled in. These are different. But John said it was the same.

Incidentally, so did Arturo Sandoval. He has written that he feels that he uses the same embouchure position for the pedal C as he does for the upper register. I guess that means you think he's an idiot as well.

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5644
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:05 pm Post subject:

Pops wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

Those are the reasons I support the use of Pedal Note Exercises and Breathing Exercises, even though they are not within the normal range of the trumpet, or in the case of the Breathing Exercises, even involve the trumpet.

You just changed the parameters in mid post. You started by saying it was in the normal range.

I should have written "typical" range, not normal range in that sentence you quoted. While pedal notes are not typically played by the average (mediocre) player, they are within the "normal" range of a brass instrument. The fundamental tone in the Harmonic Series in open position on a trumpet is a Pedal C. As you push valve down, the fundamental note on a trumpet with all three valves down is a Pedal F# (below Pedal C).

Pops wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

What we do with our embouchures when playing involves 90% coordination and 10% strength (or roundabouts those numbers). Buzzing one's lips does not develop the same embouchure as when playing (as soon as you add a mouthpiece and its pressure, everything is different).

Just because you don't know how to buzz doesn't mean that I don't. It also doesn't mean that Thompson doesn't.

Hilarious. Just hilarious. So the problem is "I don't know how to buzz." Gee, I've wasted all my time practicing my trumpet. If only I knew how to buzz, I could have spent all that time buzzing my lips instead of practicing my trumpet to become a better trumpet player. Really?!

I studied with many teachers who advocated buzzing exercises. I did as they instructed. It got me nowhere. I then started studying with a teacher who told me buzzing was a waste of time. I ended up with a great career. As far as I know, I'm the only one engaged in this discussion who actually is or was a full time professional trumpet player.

And as I understand it, Thompson advocated mouthpiece buzzing, not lip buzzing.

Pops wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

And when buzzing, the feel of the pitches and intervals between notes is completely different than when actually playing a trumpet. So there's no coordination development.

wrong again. People who can actually buzz do feel the same intervals. That is why we buzz. Do you really think we are so stupid that we just buzz aimless notes with our lips mindlessly doing nothing?

So you think that you manipulate your facial muscles, tongue, and air exactly the same from and to exactly the same positions to slur up, say, a perfect 5th when buzzing your lips as you do when actually playing a trumpet?

Pops wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

Also, no finger coordination is developed. For these reasons, I think time spent buzzing that could have been spent practicing a trumpet is wasted time.

John It is actually possible to move your fingers when you buzz, if you wanted to also work on coordination.

Okay, so you think that "moving your fingers when you buzz" will yield better results than actually playing the trumpet and manipulating the valves while playing? Oh God....

Oh goodie. I'm going to buzz "Flight of the Bumble Bee", and then I'm going to go through all the double and triple tonguing exercises in the Arban book. I just know that as long as I "move my fingers" while double tonguing and triple tonguing with my buzzing lips, that if I actually had a mouthpiece and trumpet in front of me, the coordination between my lips and fingers would be perfect...

Think before you post for gosh sakes!!!!!!

Pops, over the past few years you've posted GREAT things that I am sure have been of tremendous help to many players. This is not one of those moments. I'm not saying you have to change your mind about buzzing. I'm not the lord God king of trumpet, and maybe I'm wrong. But you're just digging yourself into a hole here.

With respect,

John

Pops
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 1485
Location: Dallas

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject:

John Mohan wrote:

Well, if word count determines the winner, I concede.

Gentleman, start buzzing your lips.

Seriously, the reader can decide for himself if buzzing might be helpful or not.

I'm amazed at the ferocity of certain people. And the word count.

I don't have time to address the many bits of wrong info in Pops' post but I have to address one:

Yes, the soft palate is involved in keeping air from going out our nose. But overly tensing it and/or raising the back of the tongue incorrectly causes it to restrict air from coming out of our mouths as well (the typical "closed throat" feeling). Anyone can demonstrate this feeling by grunting.

You said that you have to address something from MY post and then it is something that hasn't been mentioned in the entire thread.

You are the only one to mention raising the back of the tongue. Way to throw something TOTALLY unrelated into the thread. So you want to demo grunting on a thread about buzzing. I don't suppose that you want to tie this in do you?

Is your big buzzing theory now, that it might make you tense the soft palate? Why else would you mention the soft palate in a buzzing thread?
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin

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Last edited by Pops on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

Matt Parkinson
Regular Member

Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 90

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:23 am Post subject:

*** Last edited by Matt Parkinson on Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:55 am; edited 3 times in total

Pops
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 1485
Location: Dallas

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:00 am Post subject:

John Mohan wrote:

I am ever so glad that you told me what those notes are and how to finger them. However; it still doesn't change the fact that they are not in the normal range of the trumpet.

John Mohan wrote:

This is why so few people take you seriously. Rather than ask for what I meant or anything actually useful you go with reductio ad absurdum. You really don't think this is teaching do you?

John Mohan wrote:

And as I understand it, Thompson advocated mouthpiece buzzing, not lip buzzing.

Have you even read this thread? (It is LONG.)
The thread was buzzing and neither lip nor mouthpiece was specified but by post #2 mouthpiece buzzing was specifically mentioned. Thompson was mentioned 6 times before I posted on this thread. His book was mentioned and mouthpiece buzzing was mentioned starting on page 1.
I thought that by then the thread was pretty well blended between lip and mouthpiece buzzing and I mentioned both specifically.

John Mohan wrote:

Lip buzzing: Low C to second line G easily it is all arch for me. Seriously again you suddenly impose YOUR criteria. Nobody has ever said lip buzzing was exactly like playing. Everybody says it is an exercise to remediate (some embouchure issues). John just pointed out that 2 things that everyone in the world says are different are actually different.

Mouthpiece buzzing absolutely!!! From double pedal C to Triple C. It is very easy to learn to mouthpiece buzz with your exact playing embouchure. It is pretty beneficial too.

John Mohan wrote:

Okay, so you think that "moving your fingers when you buzz" will yield better results than actually playing the trumpet and manipulating the valves while playing? Oh God....

John for some reason YOU think that when you go for the all or nothing gambit and sarcastic remarks, that you are scoring big. Big boys and girls would try to stay on topic. Your 1st point was the 5 minutes buzzing was wasted because we didn't finger. I said that there was nothing to prevent it. So you suddenly jump to Saying a deliberate misquote: You said "Okay, so you think that "moving your fingers when you buzz" will yield better results than actually playing the trumpet and manipulating the valves while playing?"
It could be a feeble attempt at reductio ad absurdum instead of a misquote but I would think someone with your obvious bend at sarcasm would be able to make it clear.

John your posts are all full of straw man, misquotes, all or nothing scenarios, reductio ad absurdum, sarcasm, and "because CG said so."
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin

Pops
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 1485
Location: Dallas

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:23 am Post subject:

Matt Parkinson wrote:

The grunting part came from the discussion between you and John about the soft palate, the soft palate discussion arose from discussing breathing, the breathing topic arose from the OP's question of buzzing, simple.

Like i said before your opinion is just as valid as other teachers on here however please don't try to make people seem foolish. On the face of it buzzing and the soft palate are unrelated however there was a world of discussion in the middle which you tactfully ignored it seems.

Again my opinion and i don't wish to cause a bigger argument, however sadly i believe that this thread will leave the OP in a worse position then when they first posted.

All the best!

Matt

The OP did NOT mention breathing. Jeff and John did.
However that was NOT how it related to buzzing . It was an example of Jeff copying, John's sarcasm. Jeff changed buzz if you want to learn to buzz to do breathing exercises if you want to learn to do breathing exercises.

I clearly didn't mention breathing, the soft palate or the back of the tongue but somehow John did when quoting and responding to my post.
When someone switches gears like that everyone here calls them on it.

The grunting didn't come from my discussion with John. I never mentioned any grunting or any tongue movement at all. I also never mentioned throat closing.

Oh my goodness.
Is this a fake John Mohan account.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin

Pops
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 1485
Location: Dallas

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:04 am Post subject:

John Mohan wrote:

Pops wrote:

We play pedals with relaxed lips that are usually somewhat rolled out. We play high on lips that are usually somewhat rolled in. These are different. But John said it was the same.

Arturo is a nice man and a great player.
He also is well known for playing multiple embouchure sets. What he does is far removed from anything that we have discussed on this thread. It would throw a dozen or more serious wrinkles into an already confused topic.

Do I think that Arturo knows what he is doing? Absolutely.

Is it something that many players could copy? NO.

It is really tricky and complex and for John to throw that into this thread is absurd. John you know this doesn't apply. The things that you will do to try and dig out of a hole are really amazing.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin

New Arban Book http://www.NewArban.com
Video Courses, Ebooks, Skype Lessons http://BbTrumpet.com
Trumpet Ezine http://www.BbTrumpetNews.com

Kimberly
Regular Member

Joined: 27 Mar 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Chicago

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:19 am Post subject:

Pops wrote:

John; the soft palate stops us from blowing air through our nose when we play. Relaxing it would be a disaster.

John Mohan wrote:

I don't have time to address the many bits of wrong info in Pops' post but I have to address one:

Yes, the soft palate is involved in keeping air from going out our nose. But overly tensing it and/or raising the back of the tongue incorrectly causes it to restrict air from coming out of our mouths as well (the typical "closed throat" feeling). Anyone can demonstrate this feeling by grunting.

Pops wrote:

As usual John YOU added something that NOBODY mentioned and imply that I did. That is an outright LIE. You said that you have to address something from MY post and then it is something that hasn't been mentioned in the entire thread.

Errr, it's getting a bit over heated, isn't it?

solo soprano
Veteran Member

Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Posts: 403
Location: Point O' Woods / Old Lyme, Connecticut

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:01 am Post subject:

BUZZING 101: Don't do it. It's useless and can be detrimental.

Jerry Freedman
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 29 Jan 2002
Posts: 2247
Location: Burlington, Massachusetts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:10 am Post subject:

razeontherock wrote:

Jerry Freedman wrote:

There are several topics that are sure to incite a war; buzzing, pedals and the pencil exercise.

While there are also several other things sure to incite a war, if it's going to involve John Mohan, one needs Kalijah!

(A disturbance in the force, there is)

Gosh, I have been out of touch for a while and that slipped my mind. Before Mohan and Pops start winding down, someone call Kalijah. We could easily get another couple of weeks out of this with his help.

JazzTrumpet1
Regular Member

Joined: 16 Jul 2010
Posts: 79

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:29 am Post subject:

Ladies and Gentlemen, I now present to you two sides of an argument backed up by nothing more than anecdotal evidence and speculation!

Matt Parkinson
Regular Member

Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 90

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:39 am Post subject:

**** Last edited by Matt Parkinson on Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2486
Location: Garland, Texas

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:58 am Post subject:

Matt, a short note. You jump into this with a lack of understanding of what has happened in the past on the Trumpet Herald. The Callet forum was closed for a time, largely because of personal attacks by John Mohan. The dedicated pedagogy forums were also created, mainly because of constant arguments created by - you guessed it - John Mohan. I was there at the time. You were not. If you don't believe me, send a private message to any of the dedicated forum moderators. Ask them why the dedicated forums were formed. Prepare to have have your eyes opened. You ever wonder why John is not the CG forum moderator? Jeff

trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 2486
Location: Garland, Texas

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

MOHAN: I haven't "adjusted" my position at all on this subject.

Of course you have.

From earlier in the thread:

"lip buzzing is a waste of time."

From later in the thread:

"Lip buzzing can help one's playing."

When your narrow perspective gets exposed, you always shift to a broader perspective in order to appear "reasonable."

I've seen you do it dozens of times.

Jeff

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5644
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:25 am Post subject:

In the interest of trying not to confuse things more, print that is in blue is from me (John).

Pops wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

Well, if word count determines the winner, I concede.

Gentleman, start buzzing your lips.

As usual John YOU added something that NOBODY mentioned and imply that I did. I did NOT imply you wrote anything about the tongue. I was addressing what you wrote concerning the palate. I added the commentary regarding the improper arching of the tongue because it usually happens in conjunction with improperly tensing the soft palate (as in when a player strains and grunts while trying to play higher notes). That is an outright LIE. No, it is a misunderstanding on your part - if I am at fault because I didn't make it clear enough for you, I am sorry. You said that you have to address something from MY post and then it is something that hasn't been mentioned in the entire thread. John for over 15 years on TPIN and 12 years here you pull this same foolishness. I am NOT the 1st person to mention that in this thread.

You are the only one to mention raising the back of the tongue. Way to throw something TOTALLY unrelated into the thread. So you want to demo grunting on a thread about buzzing. I don't suppose that you want to tie this in do you?

Is your big buzzing theory now, that it might make you tense the soft palate? NO. Why else would you mention the soft palate in a buzzing thread? SEE BELOW. You are LOST and just throwing out random terms to puzzle people.

Pops, this is getting ridiculous.

Here is what you wrote concerning the soft palate that I was responding to:

Pops wrote:

John; the soft palate stops us from blowing air through our nose when we play. Relaxing it would be a disaster.

And here (again) is my response:

John Mohan wrote:

Yes, the soft palate is involved in keeping air from going out our nose. But overly tensing it and/or raising the back of the tongue incorrectly causes it to restrict air from coming out of our mouths as well (the typical "closed throat" feeling). Anyone can demonstrate this feeling by grunting.

I'm sorry if I caused you confusion by not placing the quote you wrote that I was responding to directly above my original reply comment. But how the heck can you possibly be so rash as to accuse me of lying?!?!?!? Yes, I am the one that first mentioned raising the back of the tongue (not you) - but where did I EVER say that you said anything about the back of the tongue? I was just pointing out that in addition to overly tensing the palate, raising the back of the tongue improperly can also cut off the air. I wrote that because I thought the point of this is to help folks become better trumpet players.

I strongly urge you to take a step back and think about it next time, before you call me a LIAR. We've none each other for more than ten years and until now, I thought you were a friend.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

P.S. Edited once to properly add the blue font colour to the last few paragraphs.

Last edited by John Mohan on Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

monkeymark
Regular Member

Joined: 11 May 2012
Posts: 99
Location: North East England

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:45 am Post subject:

All i can say is WOW If i had realised that asking this question was going to cause so many arguements then i would not have bothered. Its obviouse that every one has a different perspective on this subject,. I shall try a few things out and come to my own conclusion. I understand that others may want to continue this thread, but may i suggest that we now let sleeping dogs lie before any more damage is done. _________________ My first reply was witty and intellectual but I lost it so you got this one instead. B&H 400 Besson 600

swthiel
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 3875
Location: Porkopolis, USA (Cincinnati, OH)

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:59 am Post subject:

monkeymark wrote:

All i can say is WOW

If i had realised that asking this question was going to cause so many arguements ...

Welcome to the Trumpet Herald.
_________________
Steve Thiel
Matthew 25:31-46

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5644
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:03 am Post subject:

trumpetteacher1 wrote:

Matt, a short note.

You jump into this with a lack of understanding of what has happened in the past on the Trumpet Herald.

The Callet forum was closed for a time, largely because of personal attacks by John Mohan. The dedicated pedagogy forums were also created, mainly because of constant arguments created by - you guessed it - John Mohan.

I was there at the time. You were not.

If you don't believe me, send a private message to any of the dedicated forum moderators. Ask them why the dedicated forums were formed. Prepare to have have your eyes opened.

You ever wonder why John is not the CG forum moderator?

Jeff

This is so typical of Jeff. He seems to feel if he writes untrue or misleading things over and over again, they will become the new truth. Sadly, to a certain extent, that is true.

Facts:

I am not and I have never been a fan of the various Callet methods (SC, TCE, etc.). And I used to point out in posts that in all my encounters all over the world playing as a full time professional, while I have played alongside of many CG students, Haynie students, Clyde Hunt students, Stamp students, Adams students, and Vaccianno students, I have encountered one and only one Callet student in all my work - and he was playing 3rd part on a musical and shortly thereafter moved from professional playing to selling real estate (while still in his 20's). The folks that run the Callet machine naturely didn't like my posts.

The entire paragraph Jeff wrote claiming that the Callet forum was closed because of me and that the reason dedicated forums were created was due to some malevolence on my part is ludicrous. I was appointed Moderator of one of those forums, for heaven's sake.

And yes, later I was removed as Moderator of the Claude Gordon forum because I chose to express my negative opinion of SuperChops and I repeatedly pointed out that very few full time professionals subscribe to that method. I also (accurately) debunked the SC people's wild claims they used to make that folks ranging from Harry James to Maurice Andre were "really" SC type players. Todd told me that while I was free to express such opinions, I could not do that if I was the Claude Gordon Moderator. I think he was concerned about losing advertising revenue and I don't blame him.

After some time went by, and after I received MANY requests to return as Claude Gordon Forum Moderator, back in August of 2003 while on tour with the Musical "Grease" I started a Poll in the Lounge Section of the Trumpet Herald. Well over 90% of the respondents wanted me back as Moderator. That topic thread in the Lounge was removed by one or more of the current Moderators (I have no idea which one).

But a topic thread concerning this Poll still exists in the CG forum:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11879&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Out of 43 replies in that thread, all but two are calling for me to be reinstated as Moderator. I'm sure Jeff sides very strongly with those two. Life goes on...

Despite the fact that the vast majority of members of the Trumpet Herald wanted me to be reinstated, I never was. It's okay. I'm fine with that.

I'm not perfect. But I invite anyone who wishes to know the truth to look at the tone of my posts and contrast it with the tone of posts of Jeff's and a few others, when directed at me.

Best wishes,

John Mohan

Last edited by John Mohan on Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total

Billy B
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Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 4666
Location: Des Moines

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:08 am Post subject:

monkeymark wrote:

All i can say is WOW

If i had realised that asking this question was going to cause so many arguements then i would not have bothered.

Its obviouse that every one has a different perspective on this subject,. I shall try a few things out and come to my own conclusion.

I understand that others may want to continue this thread, but may i suggest that we now let sleeping dogs lie before any more damage is done.

To your original question--IMO No.

To everyone else, do what you believe works for you.
_________________
Bill Bergren
Obstacles are what appear when you take your eye off of the goal.
www.synergyjazz.org

John Mohan
Heavyweight Member

Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5644
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:30 am Post subject:

Again, my responses will be in Blue.

Pops wrote:

John Mohan wrote:

Pops wrote:

We play pedals with relaxed lips that are usually somewhat rolled out. We play high on lips that are usually somewhat rolled in. These are different. But John said it was the same.

Arturo is a nice man and a great player.
He also is well known for playing multiple embouchure sets. What he does is far removed from anything that we have discussed on this thread. You Pops are the only person I've ever encountered who claims that Arturo Sandoval uses "multiple embouchure sets". I've met the man, played alongside of him, and never seen any such thing. As far as I know, none of the folks who have taken private lessons with Arturo and then reported their experiences back to us here on the Trumpet Herald have reported any such thing. I think this idea that Arturo is using multiple embouchures would be of news to Arturo himself. It would throw a dozen or more serious wrinkles into an already confused topic.

Do I think that Arturo knows what he is doing? Absolutely.

Is it something that many players could copy? NO.

Au contraire, it most certainly is something any and all players could copy. What Arturo does, is basically pure Claude Gordon / Louis Maggio. At Claude Gordon's Honorary Doctorate Ceremony, Arturo told us he developed his sound and range by practicing from a smuggled-in copy of Claude's "Systematic Approach to Daily Practice" book while still in Cuba. He's a prime example of what the method can do if taken to extreme levels of practice.

Pops wrote:

It is really tricky and complex and for John to throw that into this thread is absurd. John you know this doesn't apply. The things that you will do to try and dig out of a hole are really amazing.

I'm not in a hole, Pops. I have an opinion. That opinion is, that any time spent buzzing one's lips (or mouthpiece) that could have been spent practicing a trumpet, is wasted time. That does not mean buzzing might not be beneficial - I think it could be beneficial or harmful - but even if it's beneficial for some, I don't see it being as beneficial as spending that same limited time practicing an actual trumpet. It is therefore, in my opinion, a waste of time. That's not a hole. It's an opinion based on my experiences as a student of Claude Gordon for 14 years and as a full time professional player for more than a quarter of a century.

Sincerely,

John Mohan

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