Why is the "deleted" thread is now locked?

[horndawg69]

Not sure why the need for the Callet military police presence on this forum.. it seems like you can't speak against the regime rather like the citizens of North Korea...

Anyway... i was just wanting to comment on Drew Wilkie's videos in the aforementioned thread. An excellent example of effortless trumpet playing IMHO. It's useful to note that in the different registers, his face doesn't change/contort... When players do make unnecessary facial contortions when going for high notes, it's usually a sign that they could make life a lot easier by cutting them out. Caruso will help with this whether you use TCE or not (he says sheepishly in the Callet forum..) but also just watching yourself play in the mirror is a good idea if you want to achieve that. If you look like you are using a lot of effort to play, you probably are (Dizzy's cheek were the exception to this..) and it's startling how many players don't even realise they look like they are chewing a wasp when playing in the high register.

Nice work Drew - can't believe you don't have any gigs. It's a crying shame!

[drewwilkie86]

Horndawg, thank you for the kind words!

I don't gig anymore primarily because I'm trying to get my career in motion (military, law school, etc). The trumpet just doesn't fit anywhere in that equation. That said, I had a good run. Had a lot of incredible experiences, met a lot of amazing people, and learned a lot along the way.

I'm not necessarily bugged by the fact that the thread was locked; I understand the moderator's reasoning behind that. What does bug me is the fact that things have to get to that point. There are forum members here who are apparently unable to get along nicely, which is what leads to threads being locked. That is what frustrates me, and that's why I do my best to avoid the Trumpet Herald these days. Every thread is nothing but a fiasco waiting to happen.
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Drew Wilkie

HEAR ME: http://www.myspace.com/drewjwilkie

[John Mohan]

It's not just locked - at least the final page or two are missing - everything from the late afternoon of June 21st onward is gone. What's really strange is as far as I remember, there was nothing in particular that was impolite, or showing a negative opinion or attitude about the Callet method(s) posted among the stuff that got removed.

My own playing and a video I posted on YouTube had been brought up (with nice compliments from Drew and "lenin rodriguez") and I replied thanking Drew and lenin for the nice things they both said about my playing. I did beg to differ with lenin on his assessment that my conception of the physics of brass playing is completely wrong - but I was polite about it. And as for my comments concerning SuperChops and TCE, I said nice things about them as well. I pointed out that I've now come to realize that the idea does have merit, as evidenced in no small part by Drew's ability.

So I don't think it was anything I posted - I wonder if someone who knows what happened and why would let the rest of us know.

Best wishes,

John

[razeontherock]

Hey Drew;

many of us here went through "the professional phase" of our lives, where trumpet had no place. Too much of a time commitment. You also said something along the lines of considering yourself to be a recovering trumpet player, (or something) so without wanting to pry, I suggest there may be more to this. (Maybe you know all about it, maybe it's subconscious, etc)

I'm just pointing out that some simple off the horn exercises can keep the necessary muscles roughly in place, and it's VERY likely that some time in your life you will find, as one poster's sig line goes, that music is a fire in your belly demanding to get out, and you'd better put a horn in the way before somebody gets hurt. You clearly have talent, and there are only about a million directions you could take that, that you haven't gone before. I know I've spent much of my life running from my calling as a musician, to no avail ... it always finds me again. I'm playing the world's largest music festival next Friday, the State Fair here 3 times, a first gig with a new band this Friday; but I've run my own business for 20 years so my shoes are kinda different from your's at the moment.

[horndawg69]

Oh Ok. In that case, good luck in your career building! Yes your frustrations with this forum partially concur with my own but I also believe that there are many statements made about MSC on this forum that are unsubstantiated and when further questioned have remained so. This leads me to devalue much of the content (your own excluded of course) and I think the debate should be more open. I also think this policing provokes frustrated comments and leads to foul play. Just my two pence (cents)

[razeontherock]

[jamesswilcox]

Well I must interject here. To suggest that a dedicated forum is not designed for debate is really too much to swallow. What will happen when Jerome is no longer alive? Are his ideas and concepts to be cast into aspic for embouchure historians to pick over? Surely all we have is debate and enquiry, through which technique is refined and improved. I am in this context reminded of the MSC video which I purchased from Jerome, and the clinic he runs through with the guy who uses a rotary trumpet. As I remember this section of the video, Jerome is introducing a 'new embouchure' (TCE to MSC?) in which he suggests that the tongue should be placed over the bottom of the front teeth, touching the bottom lip, rather than anchored behind the the bottom of the front teeth. I may have this wrong, but the precise detail is unimportant. Would it have mattered who had come up with this suggestion? One really doesn't own a technique, one merely puts it in to the environment and watches as it assumes a life of its own, not unlike parenthood. Let's not be over protective and precious about our playing technique, and see where it takes us.....

As for the locking of the the thread, the moderator must provide an explanation.

Best,

J

[razeontherock]

I'm not sure any of us are in any position to state what any mod "must" do. There's been plenty of inquiry and debate, and in a sense each of us is our own "embouchure historian." We substantiate to ourselves what we think is worth pursuing, and within that scope this forum has been VERY tolerant of a wide range of ideas and comments, many of which don't represent Callet's teaching at all.

When debate turns to slamming the teachings of the person a dedicated forum is dedicated to? I think that falls 100% within mod discretion, including no need to tolerate that. Of course that can be a fine line of grey shady, and I personally didn't see anything in the thread in question like that before it got removed.

Anyway I could name a few very fine players who don't use Callet's methods, that speak well of not only his intentions but his methods. This includes people who formerly misunderstood the point, and others who made a point of sticking up for experimenting, even though it was highly controversial. (At that time. It has gained much more acceptance since)

Investigating something new takes courage.

[Jerry Freedman]

wouldn't debate be more appropriate in the fundamentals/pedagogy/highrange forum? Rich Willey doesn't tolerate such debate in the reinhardt forum nor does Pat Harbison in the Caruso forum. To stifle Callet debate in the Callet forum would not be out of line but accepted procedure.

[John Mohan]

I can see both points of view concerning the idea of debate in a dedicated forum.

On the one hand, it's out of place to specifically call into question the validity of a method or in any way, target a method for destruction within the confines of that method's dedicated forum. It's also out of line to go and actively promote a differing method when in a dedicated forum.

But on the other hand, when wildly inaccurate claims are made about a certain method (for instance the old ones suggesting that Roger Ingram is a SuperChops player, and that Armando Ghitalla sought out Jerome Callet for help with his playing), I think it's appropriate to challenge such false claims, wherever they are posted. And also, if someone posts something wrong about the method itself, I think it is correct and desirable for someone with more knowledge about that method to (gently) correct the inaccuracies. Hopefully, in both those circumstances, destructive debates won't then ensue.

Best wishes,

John Mohan

P.S. If there was ever proof desired that I now consider SuperChops to have some merit, it would be the fact that I just added the term to my Spell Checker.

[drewwilkie86]

Constructive and civil debate is obviously an integral part of a discussion board. What happens WAY more than it should, is the debate that turns into a pissing contest because one person steps over the line, and the other takes it personally. Then one calls out the other for not posting videos of their playing capabilities. And then the thread gets deleted.

Oh, and then a 40+ page thread will begin regarding tongue arch and if/how it affects our performance.

Tired of the jive! That's why I try to stay away from the herald these days.
_________________
Drew Wilkie

HEAR ME: http://www.myspace.com/drewjwilkie

[razeontherock]

If I might concur with the above, comment, and summarize:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJdWPSwSOLw

(With a little splash of horns no less)

[Jerry Freedman]

John is right. There was a time when we read that Harry James, Charlie Shavers and and other dead players were SC or TCE or MSC players. In the TCE book ( I have it but the title escapes me ) there is a hint that Armstrong was a TCE player. BS detecting is legitimate but coming into the forum claiming that its all garbage and can't work is out of line.

[Jerry Freedman]

[horndawg69]

[razeontherock]

The point Jerry just raised addresses the history of how Jerome arrived at his ideas. Whether one feels he is correct or not, it's an integral part of understanding where he's coming from with all this, and why.

[jamesswilcox]

[razeontherock]

While there are obviously elements of this vid that would make us all cringe, I think maybe it's an apt depiction of the type of attack, core, and general sound of MSC? (On the first part)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PauxMCYB18&feature=related

[tptguy]

Though previously discussed numerous times on this forum, it appears it’s time to bring it up again. As Raze says, you need to view the history of MSC to properly understand Jerome’s statements about dead people. Jerome has always been emphatic that he studied the embouchures, and especially the sound, of the very special players of the past in an effort to REDISCOVER their techniques. MSC is the result of his 50 years studying the past. It’s his effort to help advance the craft. If you don’t believe he’s on the right track then that’s fine. But to understand his statements you merely have to remember the chronology.

In regard to Louis Armstrong, Jerome would not suggest that he was truly an MSC player or he wouldn’t have the scars on his lips. But he does note Louis’ published statement that when he was playing his best he would feel a tickling on the top of his tongue. From his own tests, Jerome concludes that the combination of tickling along with the brilliance in Louis’ sound is created by the interaction of the tongue and top teeth like Jerome teaches in MSC. That’s all that has been said. If you can get the combination of tickle and brilliance some other way then I’m sure Jerome would like to hear you demonstrate. But that’s the long and short – nothing more to it. Best to all, Kyle

[wvtrumpet]

I need to stop by this forum more often..... Lot's of drama!!!
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