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zachman727
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 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: Rapid single tongue |
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| Just out of curiosity, how fast can a player build his rapid single tongue? |
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Musicman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| If you dedicate yourself to Clarke's one minute excercise, in a about 2-3 months you can have it at a very acceptable and serviceable speed that will bridge over into the low end double tongue speeds. |
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zachman727
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I was wondering if there was an upper limit. I have heard stories of players on brass and woodwind instruments single tonguing sixteenths at around quarter note = 145-160 bpm, which is a ridiculously fast tongue. At that point I would think it would be easier just to double tongue, but I was wondering if this was even possible. |
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royjohn
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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"All men are created equal, only some are more equal than others . . . "
There are individual differences in coordination. In the old Halstead-Reitan neuropsychological test, finger tapping was said to be highly correlated with athleticism and speed. So you could compare your finger tapping speed to that of others and see how nimble you are, in general. Just tapping an index finger on a table or using first and second fingers to trill, as on a piano.
Then, of course, it all depends on how much time you are willing to put in to improve.
To get an idea of what's possible, I'd look at the max tempo on various selections of Carnival or Venice on Youtube. Since that's double tongued, I'd guess that the fastest single tonguing is about half as fast as that, or maybe just a bit faster. But in about two minutes, someone is probably going to contradict me . . . .
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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Musicman
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Our Assist. Princ. Horn can single tongue up into the 160s-170s. Naturally gifted. If you have a normal tongue like everybody else, with hard work on that Clarke Minute, you can achieve short spurts into the 140s. |
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Jerry Freedman
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| What is the Clarke one minute exercise? |
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Musicman
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| You can find it at the front of Clarke's Characteristic Studies or in Chris Gekker's tonguing book. It is a daily drill of one complete minute of 16th notes on a middle G. Breathe where you need to by cutting out a 16th or two. All this with a metronome starting at 80. Two weeks at 80, then jumping up 4 numbers every two weeks until you get to 100. Once you reach 100 you increment the metronome marking by 2 every two weeks. I love this exercise. Works on eficiency, air flow, consistent attack quality, and speed. Even at the lower speeds, it seems easy in the beginning but it starts to kick your butt closer to the one minute mark. After 2-3 months you'll be amazed at the improvement in all aspects of your playing. |
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airdyn
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: Rapid tonguing principles |
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| Musicman wrote: | | You can find it at the front of Clarke's Characteristic Studies or in Chris Gekker's tonguing book. It is a daily drill of one complete minute of 16th notes on a middle G. Breathe where you need to by cutting out a 16th or two. All this with a metronome starting at 80. Two weeks at 80, then jumping up 4 numbers every two weeks until you get to 100. Once you reach 100 you increment the metronome marking by 2 every two weeks. I love this exercise. Works on eficiency, air flow, consistent attack quality, and speed. Even at the lower speeds, it seems easy in the beginning but it starts to kick your butt closer to the one minute mark. After 2-3 months you'll be amazed at the improvement in all aspects of your playing. |
Remember, Clarke used the anchor tongue...not quite with the tip in the gully for a Type V tongue, but against the back of the lower teeth and kept it there for all things...tonguing, slurring and sustaining. Doc called this The Complete Type V Tongue.
And for all of us to remember, it is the BACKSTROKE of the tongue that emits the sound and that speed and volume are not synonymous i.e. the faster and slower you work on your tonguing the more you need to back off of the volume. In addition, the LENGTH OF THE BACKSTROKE determines volume. Therefore, the shorter the backstroke, the faster you can tongue the rapid forms of single, double and triple.
That's not to say one can't play loud and tongue fast. Al Hirt could. But until one can do this, use the "d" forms for rapid tonguing as "deh-deh-deh..." for rapid single, "deh-geh deh-geh..." for rapid double and "deh-deh-geh deh-deh-geh..." for rapid triple. The hard "T" uses too much backstroke for speed.
And as Doc would say: "Sing the syllables with a high pitched voice with the tongue striking as high up in the roof as possible".
Dave S.
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drboogenbroom
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Depends on how you do it. The Clark exercise is good, but for the fastest results I teach students to use different vowels and consonants (much as airdyn described) and combine that with the tonguing exercise found in Carmine Caruso's "Musical Calisthenics for Brass." Played with the four rules and correct tongue placement I've had students improve their tonguing speed almost immediately and continue to noticeably improve it week to week.
So far as an upper limit. I've met trumpet players and horn players who can single tongue extended passages of 16th notes 140-160. I can single tongue that fast, but not for too long.
On the other hand, that type of tongue speed seems pretty standard (and actually a little slow) for most of the really good flute/sax/clarinet players I know. I think that has to do with the nature of the instrument ie no resistance on flute and the shorter distance the tongue has to travel with a reed instrument.
Kevin
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: |
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There are certainly some players who can tongue extended passages of sixteenths at 144 and beyond. They are, however, the exception. Based on the "are you doing that double or single?" conversations I've had, I would say that the typical maximum consistent single tongue speed for extended passages seems to be around 116 or so. I would say that about 112-126 seems to be the "normal" range.
I imagine different techniques might affect one's maximum speed, but it seems like some people just have faster tongues than others. Players who have slower single tongue speed will need to develop somewhat better multiple tongue technique, because it's not unusual to encounter passages in the 116-126 range that are fairly angular.
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solo soprano
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Rapid single tongue |
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| zachman727 wrote: | | Just out of curiosity, how fast can a player build his rapid single tongue? |
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"According to Chris Gekker's Articulation book Clarke "eventually reached quarter note=160 for a minute and a half, all in one breath." This took him eight years." Fuzzy Dunlop
"One of the many things Herbert L. Clarke could do is that he would set the metronome to 184 and single tongue in 16th notes, four on a beat, that would be approximately 13 articulations per second and keep it up for an entire minute in one breath without slowing down. Try that sometime."
Bill Knevitt 1995
student of Claude Gordon |
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:36 am Post subject: Re: Rapid tonguing principles |
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| airdyn wrote: | | Remember, Clarke used the anchor tongue...not quite with the tip in the gully for a Type V tongue, but against the back of the lower teeth and kept it there for all things...tonguing, slurring and sustaining. |
While it's very good to point out the not-as-widespread, but correct way that Clarke tongued, I wish people would stop refering to it as "anchor" tonguing. This is not a good word to describe this particular way of tonguing, as it implies anchoring the tongue i.e. keeping it rigid. The tongue should never be rigid, but should be relaxed and able to move freely to whatever position it needs to be in for whatever note at whatever dynamic level is to be played.
That said, it was this particular style of tonguing (alternatively called "Anchor", "V type", "Dorsal" and "KTM") that allowed Clarke to be able to single tongue sustained 1/16th notes at 180 bpm for a full minute at a time. One of the benefits of KTM tonguing is that it keeps the tongue tip down out of the way of the air stream all the time - very little tongue movement is required when articulating repeated notes. Less movement = more speed. Another benefit is an increase in accuracy and ease of articulating high notes, because again, the tip of the tongue is never in the way of the airstream and also, the positioning of the tongue (with the tip always right there up against the bottom front teeth) keeps the entire tongue in the most forward position in the mouth where it needs to be, especially for higher notes. Note that when tonguing the typical (but wrong) way with the tongue tip against the back of the top teeth or against the alveolar ridge (just in front of the hard palate), the tongue is pushed back in the mouth - this often leads to incorrect tongue arch where the tongue is arched too far back in the mouth causing the sensation of "choking off" or "closing the throat" especially on high notes.
Herbert Clarke is most certainly not the only man that tongued this way - but he is the first to clearly describe it in text. In fact, most if not all the great virtuoso players utilize the way of tonguing that Claude Gordon called "K-Tongue Modified" (KTM). Clarke taught this method of tonguing to all his students including Claude, and Claude has passed it on to most of his students (until his later years of teaching, Claude would wait until he felt a student was ready to learn about KTM before starting to teach it, so most of the players that just studied with Claude for a year or so wouldn't have learned it from him).
Here's a quote from Jeff Purtle's Website describing KTM tonguing:
| Jeff Purtle wrote: | Why is it important to single tongue K Tongue Modified?
This is not an optional item. Without tonguing this way you will never experience accuracy, tonguing speed and ease of playing especially in the upper register. Incorrect tonguing disrupts the tongue’s arch in the front of the mouth working against Tongue Level. Everyone uses Tongue Level when they play. Most people are never taught about correct single tonguing. The very tip of the tongue always remains in contact with the top of the bottom teeth and you produce the “T” just slightly back from the tip of the tongue. This is in the front middle of the tongue, hence Claude Gordon coined the term “K Tongue Modified” because like K tonguing it is in the middle of the tongue, but modified to be more forward toward the tip. Here are some people I have spoken with that I know tongue this way: Arturo Sandoval, Doc Severinsen, Frank Kaderabek, Wayne Bergeron, Bob O’Donnel[sic], and Claude Gordon and his students. Claude Gordon learned this from Herbert L. Clarke, who taught it to all his students. Also, Armando Ghitalla tongued this way and taught his students this. |
In my own experience, playing professionally all over the world, each time I came across a really good player and had the chance, I would ask him about how he tongues. Most of these players tongued using the KTM method and were aware of it, either having been taught it, or naturally finding this to be the way to tongue. The few that weren't aware of it, upon self-analysis found that they were in fact using the KTM method of tonguing without realizing it.
Concerning single tonguing speed, I was a slow one. When I first started studying with Claude I had been seriously practicing for many years, doing exercises from Arbans, Colin, Schlossberg and Clarke books among others. Yet my single tonguing speed only hovered around 100 bpm at best. When Claude introduced me to KTM tonguing my speed started well, speeding up. After about a year of doing the KTM exercises (similar to Clarke's tonguing exercise previously mentioned in this thread) I had worked up my speed to the 120's range. Years later, when I had a second go of the exercises, I eventually got to where I could single tongue at 144 on good days and sustain 132 bpm any day of the week. Not quite the 144 or 180 bpm that Gordon and Clarke achieved respectively, but a vast improvement to be sure!
Best wishes,
John Mohan
P.S. I think the best developmental exercise for first learning to use the KTM method of tonguing and then to build tonguing speed is the first exercise in Claude Gordon's book "Tongue Level Exercises". This exercise is a "new and improved" version of Clarke's original tonguing exercise. A full explanation of KTM tonguing and instructions on how to use this exercise to learn KTM type tonguing and build speed can be found on pages 24 through 27 of the book "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing" by Claude Gordon. Links to both books:
https://www.purtle.com/content/claude-gordons-tongue-level-exercises
https://www.purtle.com/brass-playing-no-harder-deep-breathing-claude-gordon |
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Branson
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airdyn
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: One size fits all thinking. |
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Any attempt to state from any system or teaching philosophy HOW one should play, whether how to use the tongue as this particular topic is covering, or the tongue arch, or whatever, without consideration of the individual, is entirely the antithesis of Reinhardt's teachings. Is the length of one's tongue considered? The tongue's thickness? The length and thickness of the tongue in relation to the mouth cavity - the roof of the mouth(low or high) and the spacial distance between the back teeth (short or long), for instance? A "one size fits all" philosophy, without considering the individual, will leave out just too many young players that will be "nipped in the bud". Why do so many take up a brass instrument and why do so few succeed? The Reinhardt approach teaches the individual and is not a "blanket" approach. And tonguing is just a small portion of the big picture where all playing factors must keep the individual in mind.
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Matt Parkinson
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:37 am Post subject: Re: One size fits all thinking. |
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| airdyn wrote: | | Any attempt to state from any system or teaching philosophy HOW one should play, whether how to use the tongue as this particular topic is covering, or the tongue arch, or whatever, without consideration of the individual, is entirely the antithesis of Reinhardt's teachings. Is the length of one's tongue considered? The tongue's thickness? The length and thickness of the tongue in relation to the mouth cavity - the roof of the mouth(low or high) and the spacial distance between the back teeth (short or long), for instance? A "one size fits all" philosophy, without considering the individual, will leave out just too many young players that will be "nipped in the bud". Why do so many take up a brass instrument and why do so few succeed? The Reinhardt approach teaches the individual and is not a "blanket" approach. And tonguing is just a small portion of the big picture where all playing factors must keep the individual in mind. |
Hmm i'm a bit skeptical that the length, thickness and spacial distance from the bottom teeth of the tongue makes much difference.
I have a very small thin tongue and my best friend at uni has quite a large thick tongue. We both tongue KTM and have pretty much the same range and tonguing speed. The only difference i have noticed is that he plays with a slightly more open jaw than me, this may be due to his larger tongue or not but it's safe to say that me and him are at extremes with how the tongue is biologically and it makes no difference.
Kind regards,
Matt |
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airdyn
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:17 am Post subject: Re: One size fits all thinking. |
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| Matt Parkinson wrote: |
Hmm i'm a bit skeptical that the length, thickness and spacial distance from the bottom teeth of the tongue makes much difference.
I have a very small thin tongue and my best friend at uni has quite a large thick tongue. We both tongue KTM and have pretty much the same range and tonguing speed. The only difference i have noticed is that he plays with a slightly more open jaw than me, this may be due to his larger tongue or not but it's safe to say that me and him are at extremes with how the tongue is biologically and it makes no difference.
Kind regards,
Matt |
Hmm also. Tell me about the mouth cavity of you both. Do you both have the same mouth cavity size? Does one possess a high roof and the other a low roof? Either of you a big space between the back teeth and the other a small space? There is a chance that different mouth cavity sizes accommodate different tongue sizes and where the tip is placed can be identical in that respect, achieving the same results. Both use the same mouthpiece size? Same make of instrument?
Are your lower teeth the same length? The upper teeth the same length? Is the tip of both of your tongues resting against short lower teeth or long lower teeth?
Are your sounds similar when sustaining and slurring? When articulating?You both tongue using KTM ( a term I am unfamiliar with. I assume it means the tip is resting behind the lower teeth ala Clarke at all times, and that the articulation occurs not with the tip of the tongue striking behind the upper teeth but the area behind the tip hits the striking area.)
All of this sounds kind of crazy for a teacher to want to know these things. As Vince DiMartino always said, "Be Curious". As one learns to "Know Thyself", I wish to know my student just as much physically as he or she is as far as personality or temperament is concerned. I would gear the How To with the physical attributes of the individual. Some do many things the same way as others and achieve different results, while others do things the same way and achieve the same results. You and your playing friend seem to be in the latter.
Thanks for posting and giving me a chance to explain how I teach using Reinhardt principles, learning about the individual as best as I can. To me, this case you explain makes a great study.
Dave S.
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- Aristotle
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Jerry Freedman
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Given the advantages of KTM and the various mouth tongue configurations you are talking about wouldn't the recommendation be "If you can do KTM, then do it"? |
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Matt Parkinson
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:27 am Post subject: Re: One size fits all thinking. |
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| airdyn wrote: |
Hmm also. Tell me about the mouth cavity of you both. Do you both have the same mouth cavity size? Does one possess a high roof and the other a low roof? Either of you a big space between the back teeth and the other a small space? There is a chance that different mouth cavity sizes accommodate different tongue sizes and where the tip is placed can be identical in that respect, achieving the same results. Both use the same mouthpiece size? Same make of instrument?
Are your lower teeth the same length? The upper teeth the same length? Is the tip of both of your tongues resting against short lower teeth or long lower teeth?
Are your sounds similar when sustaining and slurring? When articulating?You both tongue using KTM ( a term I am unfamiliar with. I assume it means the tip is resting behind the lower teeth ala Clarke at all times, and that the articulation occurs not with the tip of the tongue striking behind the upper teeth but the area behind the tip hits the striking area.)
All of this sounds kind of crazy for a teacher to want to know these things. As Vince DiMartino always said, "Be Curious". As one learns to "Know Thyself", I wish to know my student just as much physically as he or she is as far as personality or temperament is concerned. I would gear the How To with the physical attributes of the individual. Some do many things the same way as others and achieve different results, while others do things the same way and achieve the same results. You and your playing friend seem to be in the latter.
Thanks for posting and giving me a chance to explain how I teach using Reinhardt principles, learning about the individual as best as I can. To me, this case you explain makes a great study.
Dave S. |
Ahhh thats a lot of stuff to consider  !!
My friends teeth are bigger than mine (both upper and lower), i'm not sure about the cavity size :/ it's hard to measure!! Neither of us have any space between any teeth. I use a bigger mouthpiece and horn, im using a CG personal mouthpiece with a CG Benge horn, he uses a 3c Bach mouthpiece with a Yamaha xeno horn.
Our sounds are pretty similar (apart from the difference the equpment makes), i think perhaps maybe my attacks are a little more centred however his attacks have more emphasis (stronger).
I seem to have more flexibility over the range of the instrument but when covering just one partial (i.e low 'c' to second line 'g') his is better than mine.
Hope this aids in some way!!
Matt |
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JazzTrumpet1
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: Re: One size fits all thinking. |
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| Matt Parkinson wrote: | | airdyn wrote: |
Hmm also. Tell me about the mouth cavity of you both. Do you both have the same mouth cavity size? Does one possess a high roof and the other a low roof? Either of you a big space between the back teeth and the other a small space? There is a chance that different mouth cavity sizes accommodate different tongue sizes and where the tip is placed can be identical in that respect, achieving the same results. Both use the same mouthpiece size? Same make of instrument?
Are your lower teeth the same length? The upper teeth the same length? Is the tip of both of your tongues resting against short lower teeth or long lower teeth?
Are your sounds similar when sustaining and slurring? When articulating?You both tongue using KTM ( a term I am unfamiliar with. I assume it means the tip is resting behind the lower teeth ala Clarke at all times, and that the articulation occurs not with the tip of the tongue striking behind the upper teeth but the area behind the tip hits the striking area.)
All of this sounds kind of crazy for a teacher to want to know these things. As Vince DiMartino always said, "Be Curious". As one learns to "Know Thyself", I wish to know my student just as much physically as he or she is as far as personality or temperament is concerned. I would gear the How To with the physical attributes of the individual. Some do many things the same way as others and achieve different results, while others do things the same way and achieve the same results. You and your playing friend seem to be in the latter.
Thanks for posting and giving me a chance to explain how I teach using Reinhardt principles, learning about the individual as best as I can. To me, this case you explain makes a great study.
Dave S. |
Ahhh thats a lot of stuff to consider !!
My friends teeth are bigger than mine (both upper and lower), i'm not sure about the cavity size :/ it's hard to measure!! Neither of us have any space between any teeth. I use a bigger mouthpiece and horn, im using a CG personal mouthpiece with a CG Benge horn, he uses a 3c Bach mouthpiece with a Yamaha xeno horn.
Our sounds are pretty similar (apart from the difference the equpment makes), i think perhaps maybe my attacks are a little more centred however his attacks have more emphasis (stronger).
I seem to have more flexibility over the range of the instrument but when covering just one partial (i.e low 'c' to second line 'g') his is better than mine.
Hope this aids in some way!!
Matt |
What he is really getting at is the fact that everyone has physical differences that should be taken into account in all methods but are not. A lot of people have success with Claude Gordon, Callet, Stevens or Maggio but in the end they are all one size fits all. |
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airdyn
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:07 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Jazz Trumpet for this: | Quote: | | What he is really getting at is the fact that everyone has physical differences that should be taken into account in all methods but are not. A lot of people have success with Claude Gordon, Callet, Stevens or Maggio but in the end they are all one size fits all. |
This series of how to get speed in single tonguing, it seems to be turning into a Claude Gordon "way". The standard approach that tradition uses with metronome settings is not addressing the mechanics of playing the single tongue - tongue backstroke, volume relationships to speed, etc. - that I originally posted regarding how to get the single tongue up to double tongue speed.
I appreciate Matt's curiosity. I have so many questions as to his friends tongue placement, like is the tip on the top of the lower teeth, half way down, on the rugae or "bump" below the lower teeth or in the gully, since Matt says his tongue is so large. I'm really not into discussing CG approaches on this Reinhardt Forum and think that it would be more appropriate to go to the CG Forum for this "metronome" approach and the KTM thing. Besides, I wouldn't think of going to the CG Forum and espousing the "No size fits all" "One man's meat...etc." approach.
I would be glad to do PM's with Matt to learn more of his similarities and differences between he and his friend and will leave this post for now.
Dave S.
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"For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them".
- Aristotle
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www.fixyourbrass.blogspot.com
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