Tongue Arch, Is it really the vowels?

[Matt Parkinson]

I have 2 things i wish to bring up.

My first is that i know a trumpet player that leaks air directly at both sides of the mouthpiece, meaning his aperture is wider than the actual mouthpiece. He is a phenomenal lead player and from watching him intently, it is safe to say that there is very little if any resistance from his aperture.

The second point is that in one of Claude's books (i think Brass Playing is no Harder) he tells us that he could play a scale up to high 'G' and back down moving the mouthpiece from one side to another, there is no way he could do that with his aperture.

Kind regards,

Matt

[Richard III]

I recently found "the knack." Chops are relaxed. In fact, like John describes, I can even feel some floppiness if I wanted in my cheeks. My range just shot up a third with better sound. My endurance is, well, strangely not an issue as the load if off the chops. Pretty cool. And yes, it's all the tongue shape and arch. What an amazing secret. It took a while and I had to let go of the aperture control stuff. That stands in the way.

Thanks once again to all the CG experts. Love the knack.
_________________
Richard

York Eminence Cornet
FO Cornet 7
Van Cleave pocket trumpet
FO XT7

[lh]

Claude used a lot of metaphor and visualisation in his quest to help his students develop repeatable skills and successful habits. Many of us responded very well to this kind of teaching. I for one, am not particularly literal in how I interpret much of anything, so I don't feel as though any newly understood scientific knowledge poses a threat to Claude's methodology or what it did for me years ago. He was not a PhD physicist. He often used examples, such as the aerilon from his own flying experience to illustrate his pedagogical concepts. Frankly, following his instructions taught me to play again after a major injury, and added range to 4th leger line G with hours of endurance over the following four months. His approach was quite effective, and if the science behind some of his explanations was flawed from the eyes of a more scientifically savvy audience than we were 35 years ago, so be it.

That said, it doesn't hurt to learn something new. Just last night, CERN scientists made a significant breakthrough understanding Higgs-Boson particles, and if this is validated, currently accepted theory will be replaced. Yes, replaced. It's Galileo and the Pope all over again. Scientific understanding advanced yet Renaissance Christianity did not fade away as a result. Claude's visualisation and methodology still work fine and the results certainly speak for themselves. If his supporting explanations are found to be problematic generations later, they should be corrected. Likewise, if there is nothing wrong with them, they should be left as they are, and those initiating the criticism of them should then back off.

I contend that many of the problematic explanations did not come from Claude, but grew out of trumpeters' desire for further information. I think it is unfortunately us... his students and disciples, many in the academic community... who have inadvertently added explanatory and interpretive footnotes to many of his essential and beautifully simple concepts.

Let me explain… Claude always said "Watch the Tongue". That's what he said. That's what he meant.

He didn't say watch the tongue as you try to make it behave a certain way to get certain results. He didn't say to do stuff with the tongue and control it by watching it. He said "Watch the Tongue". Observe what is going on without interfering. Let it happen, but don't worry whether you should be doing something special. Detached awareness allows you to find the knack.

Congrats on finding it!
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High Brass by Eclipse, Selmer, Olds, B&H, Conn
Mouthpieces by Warburton, Egger, Curry, Conn
Restorations by Leigh McKinney

[John Mohan]

[John Mohan]

[razeontherock]

[Richard III]

[crzytptman]

[razeontherock]

[Sofus]

[Pinsel]

As there is a lot physics involved in this thread I would like to share my latest thoughts. I have little knowledge in physics, only had it until my 10th class, but I would really appreciate if somebody with more knowledge could exchange with me.

So Pressure in total is always the same, thats what Bernoulli says, right?

As Velocity increases, static pressure decreases, but, it was already said that kinetic energy increases. Thus Dynamic pressure increases as static pressure decreases.

Dynamic pressure is pressure as the name says and will influence the flow velocity through the aperture. right?

I have now two ideas:

The Dynamic pressure is more directional than static pressure which works in every direction, and thus more efficently working or "hitting" the aperture.

The resistance in form of the tongue arch allows us to use our exhalation muscles in a more efficent way. (this idea is very vague)

Im also attending a workshop with Professor Malte Burba soon, which is a proponent of the tongue arch, and I want to ask him about the pressure thing, because he writes that pressure increases when one uses the tongue arch. Do you have any ideas how I should approach this?

Any thoughts about the dynamic pressure thing?

[crzytptman]

[Sofus]

[Sofus]

An experiment about "Fast Air":

Go out in your garden, open the tap and se the water beam come out of your garden hose. Adjust it to 1/2 meter (or whatever . . .). The length of the beam is a function of water speed; the longer the beam, the higher the speed is at the opening. The hole where the water comes out corresponds to the apperture of your mouth.

Now step on the hose. This is similar to what the tongue does to the air. Will the beam now be longer? I shouldn´t think so. If you step hard enough the beam gets shorter because the water speed slows down at the "apperture".

The only place where water speed will be faster than before is in the hose at the position where your foot is! This corresponds to having an increase in air speed where your tongue is, but as you raise your tongue, air speed at the apperture will always slow down!

Everyone chooses whether to believe it or not, but these statements ARE backed up by the laws of physics . . .
_________________
" There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and that´s no secret! "

Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway

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Mouthpiece and Solidarity

[Matt Parkinson]

[Sofus]

That´s right, Matt; we usually blow harder when we go higher in order to maintain the same volume, and this will of course cause an increase in air speed at the apperture.

It´s good that we clarify that raising the tongue in itself does not increase air speed at the apperture.

You know what!?
I think we just killed the myth about "Fast Air" for ever!
_________________
" There are no secrets to trumpetplaying - except Practice Your Head Off - and that´s no secret! "

Bud Herseth 1977 in Hamar, Norway

*********************
Mouthpiece and Solidarity

[Pinsel]

Why does this happen, isn´t the flow rate supposed to be same in every part of the tube? Isn´t that what Bernoulli is about?

Is it maybe turbulence or something?

[Matt Parkinson]

[RyanG]

Matt, in regards to your whistle analogy, if you place your hand in front of the air stream while you change notes and observe the air speed, you'll notice the entire time with exception to the moment the note changes, the air speed and velocity is in fact constant.

[Matt Parkinson]