Loose Tuning Slide -Redux

fannyfoodle · Regular Member Joined: 24 Mar 2010 Posts: 15

[quote="Steve A"]Out of curiosity, what issue are you hoping to correct by getting rid of the looseness? Does the slide shift in pitch because of looseness, or rattle when you play, or seem to present inefficiency problems because of leaking air?

The slide is so loose that it moves while I'm playing. In fact, if I press all of the valves half-way down and blow through the leadpipe, I can push the slide right out of the horn. I suspect that there is a little bit of an air leak, but it's not terribly noticeable. Fortunately, the horn has two slides and the spare fits fine, it's just a slightly smaller bore at .458 and I'd really like to use the standard .460 slide.

I could try the thicker slide grease, but when it gets really warm my guess is that I'd run into the same problem. I'm in a community band and a lot of the concerts that we play are outdoors. Summer in southern Ohio is quite warm...especially this year!

I really appreciate all of your suggestions. I think that I will get by with the extra slide for the remainder of the summer and then pursue having it replated as Brian suggested. Seems like the best compromise. Meanwhile, I may order some of the heavy Hetman's just to see how it goes. A friend of mine has a Monette and I seem to recall him using some super thick slide grease that looked like marshmallow cream. I want to say that it was made by the same people who make Ultra Pure valve oil. Does that sound right?

Thanks again everyone!

-Dan

Geodude · Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:57 am Post subject:

#9 may have been discontinued but it still shows on the Hetman website. I will defer to folks with more experience but you'd have to play some place WAY hotter than Ohio for #9 to get runny based on what I saw when my son used it on his cornet.

Barney

upoils · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:43 am Post subject:

Hi,
At Ultra-Pure Oils, we do make a Heavy tuning slide lube that is similar to the discontinued Hetman #9 USG. Ours is clear, not white, but very sticky!!! It does wonders for loose tuning slides and does not loosen with high temperatures. You might have to apply it fresh about once a week for best results, but a little goes a long ways! Here is a link to our web store:

http://ultrapureoils.com/shop/valve-oil-and-tuning-slide-lubes.aspx

All the best,
-Ken
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ChopsGone · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1377

I laid in a supply of Hetman's USG (#9) as soon as I heard it had been discontinued - 90-year-old tubas can take a lot of thick stuff. But I've since tried Ken's Heavy Ultra-Pure and can assure you, it's about as close to glue as you can get and still move the slide - very similar to the old #9. It works at least as well, and it's readily available. It's certainly worth a try before investing in more extreme measures.
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Locutus2k · Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:34 pm Post subject:

Maybe someone already say this, i didn't read the whole thread, but if you pick the tuning slide with two fingers and gently bend it a little (up or down, is the same), you'll fix it in a matter of seconds.
We're talking just a minum bending, something you can't see by eyes. Be very gentle and it will do.
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fannyfoodle · Regular Member Joined: 24 Mar 2010 Posts: 15

Thanks Ken!

Just ordered up some of the new Ultra-Pure heavy tuning slide grease and a bottle of valve oil. I'll report back on the results.

As an aside, I have to say that I was very impressed with the simplicity of ordering from Ultra-Pure's website and the shipping was more than reasonable. I'll definitely be back.

-Dan

Brian Moon · Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:17 am Post subject:

yourbrass · Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:31 am Post subject:

Locutus2k · Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:09 am Post subject:

[quote="yourbrass"]

LittleRusty · Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:00 am Post subject:

As I posted earlier in the thread to a similar suggestion, bending does not address a leaking slide. And just as expanding changes the characteristics of the tube, bending will create a sharp edge on one side and a depression on the other side of the tuning wall slide.

fannyfoodle · Regular Member Joined: 24 Mar 2010 Posts: 15

Rest assured. I have no intention of bending the slide. I will have it repaired properly once the "concert season" winds down. Meanwhile, I'm going to try some of the new Ultra-Pure extra heavy slide grease and see if it'll get me by until then. Otherwise, I have the extra .458 tuning slide which I'm using now.

And, by the way, I'm really enjoying my "new" horn. Not sure why they're so under-appreciated, but it's something quite special. Sound wise it's somewhere between a Benge 2X and a Bach 43, but with really smooth valves

-Dan

F.E. Olds Nut · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:30 am Post subject:

Didn't the early Getzen Doc Severinsen horns come with 2 tuning slides? Could it be a possibility to find a replacement in the correct bore size? Would Allied Supply have whole slides?
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lipshurt · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:36 am Post subject:

To say that expanding the slide to make it tighter will change he ore size is an exaggeration. Usually people who say that are in the business of fixing horns, and they want to make more more doing it. All fine, but saying the bore size will change is very iffy.

For a slide to be tight, the parts need to be essentially the same size. Maybe a clearance of a half thousandth. Not even that, more like .0003

That will measure out as the same size on a caliper that reads to .001.

If its loose it probably has a clearance of .0007 total. Meaning half of that on each side.

So from loose to tight, by expanding, you are changing the bore by less than one thousandth. A lot less, more like about 3 tenThousandths. (.0003)

The bore size of all the pipes on your horn vary at least that much because that's just a really really smal amount.

So it will have essentially zero effect if you expand it, other than to make your play drastically better because the slide is not leaking any more!

It should not cost much, and the amount you tip your repair guy will be more hat what they will charge you, if you are friends with him or her. (and you should be:)

Now, bending works fine too. And there is not a gap on one side but not the other side. Actually there is clearance for the first half of the tube length on the top, which shifts about halfway down the tube to being the opposite. That's because you are bending the pipe making the tubes no longer parallel. You are not using a slide with a smaller radius. Whatever.....it still does no matter because the slide will actually leak less after you bend it. And it will be tighter.

The downside to gently bending the slide is that it makes tension in the body of the horn, which rarely can cause problems. Whatever..... You can always bend it back as easily as you you bent it the first time.

So bend it first, see if you like it. Probably will. If you think he horn plays weird, you could have tension. Bend it back and take it to you repair shop to have them expand it a bit.

If there is some drastic clearance issue, it's because the tubes are incorrect. I have seen it twice now, that a standard weight Bach came with a lightweight slide! Of course it leaks like crazy but amazingly it could have very been fairly hard to move when brand new. That would be because the tubes were slight out of alignment. If that is the case, expanding wont work. Yo can only expand a tiny bit.
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Brian Moon · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:05 am Post subject:

I particularly like the "bend it back" option.

Whose hat did you pull measurements out of?
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lipshurt · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject:

No hats involved

If you machine two brass parts to fit together as tight as a slide should be, you need to make them the same size and then lap them.

You can see on a calipers the half way points etc between the .001 marks.

I've been machining trumpet parts, slides, mouthpieces, sleeves, receivers, valve casings, recreating vintage parts for old European horns, or making slide tubes for committees, you name it, for a long time now.

Have you ever built a valve cluster from scratch? I have.

Anybody with a calipers can verify my numbers.

If you have a loose slide and then expand it, it will still measure the same, or at least way less than .001 or your dial. You need to look with your magnifying hood to see the needle splitting the marks slightly differently.

Trumpets are not that complicated, and not that mysterious either.
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yourbrass · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject:

lipshurt, (and I hope yours aren't)

Good treatise.

Expansion in our shop is for:
A. loose third water slides, Bach Benge, etc. You pull them a couple thousand times, they get loose. I don't recommend bending them.

B. Loose second slides, either form wear, damage, or they never were right in the first place. They're never a problem after a proper refit.

Tuning slide expansions are infrequent. I just don't think the "bore expansion" presents a problem, compared with a loose slide.

rftroy · Regular Member Joined: 07 Mar 2003 Posts: 78

lipshurt is right.

To tighten the slide you might expand it by a few ten-thousanths of an inch.

If you expand near to the tube end and you are worried about the tube not being perfectly cylindrical or having a changing diameter, look what happens about a cm from where you expand it.

The tuning slide tube, which has about a .020" wall thickness, ends. There you have a step of .020" all the way around; the trumpet tubing path diameter changes abruptly by .040". It does this twice, on each end of the slide. If you don't have a reversed leadpipe, the upstream end is going to see a .020" turbulence causing ring step.

The air column is not going to be worried about the miniscule bulge where the tube is expanded.

Robert

razeontherock · Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject:

Brian Moon · Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:33 pm Post subject:

LittleRusty · Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:11 am Post subject:

Actually their numbers match. Lipshurt says three ten thousandths and rfroy a few ten thousandths.

The .020 in rfroy's post refers to the slide's wall thickness. Lipshurt did not discuss the gap left when the slide is out.