re-laquering horns

Evan Abounassar · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: re-laquering horns

does anyone know if re laquering a horn would change its sound and feel. and if i went from normal laquer to scratched laquer will that effect the sound.
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Schilke B5
YAMAHA 6310Z FLUGEL (SELLING)
Gr 66M2
Gr 64S

Bill Blackwell · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: re-laquering horns

KansasTrumpet · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: re-laquering horns

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5091

It depends on what shape the horn is in and how much like new you want it too look.

For instance I have an olds bell that does not have any dents in it and it is sonicly excellent. It does through have some really deep scratchs or gouges towards the bell tail and around the bell bow. If it was a customer's and they wanted it to look like new their is no way it could be refinished with out removing a lot of material from that area. You can not add brass back to the area so your only choice is to remove material from the high spots. If the tech does what you ask you will have a bell that is thinner then before. It is not his job to explain ever step and the pro's and con's of refinishing. Too many owner's are ignorant or stupid take your pick and want what they want but then complain after the job is done. I think it is a matter of the owner educating themselves.

On the other hand if it is a plated horn you can strap sand area's then build them back up with copper then strap sand again to get the profile and thickness uniform again then final plate in silver or what ever the part was plated in before. I have had long talks with Oberlough(sp) about this for a project and he told me he does this all the time to restore old pitted bells on collectedly trumpets.

Both the shop and the owner need to do a better job with what they expect and what they can and can not do.......Communication with most shop's though is like trying to pull teeth from a living shark while it is feeding. Most customers just assume the shop knows exactly what they want. 90% of problems between customers and those that are servicing them stems from lack of communication.

Does not matter what service industry you pick communication with end customer by the person doing the work not the one taking the money is always an issue.
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yourbrass · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject:

I posted this on another thread but it might be useful here:

I tried an experiment on a french horn bell flare that I had fit a screwbell fitting on. The thing was heavy, so I got out a real coarse file and filed the h@ll out of it; real deep scratches in a way I would never do in a normal overhaul. Then I buffed out every last scratch, no matter how deep. Total weight loss: 5 percent.

So I would say anybody who does competent repair work, and buffs or scratch brushes your trumpet carefully, is going to remove next to nothing in weight and cause no change in response.

Ed Kennedy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 1055

In the LA area,
Kanstul (has original Benge tooling)
Rob Stewart (his antique restorations are beautiful)http://www.robbstewart.com/

harleyt26 · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject:

I have a trumpet that is at Andersons Plating being relaquered right now. It was in good, raw brass, shape and only needed a light buffing so I don't expect a problem with the brass being thinned too much. There may be a small difference in tone with the addition of the laquer But I doubt I will notice after the 4-6 week absence.
But I have another raw brass trumpet that has some light pitting in the contact areas from a previous owners acidic hands. I wish to have it refinished also. What finish would be recommended for this situation? I have had a media blast satin silver finish suggested to reduce thinning from excessive buffing. Would there be another or better option?

Tom Hodges

Brad361 · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:08 am Post subject: Re: re-laquering horns

yourbrass · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:44 am Post subject:

Dale Proctor · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:03 am Post subject:

DivineWind · Veteran Member Joined: 21 Jan 2009 Posts: 263 Location: MA

In past searching, I've come across this interview with Al Stewart twice, done by Jazzwax.

(Page here: http://www.jazzwax.com/2009/09/interview-al-stewart-part-3.html )

The following excerpt from that interview/page would, perhaps, serve as a refinish caveat from one particular trumpeter....

***********

JW: Did you see Armstrong after the tour ended?
 AS: Yes, several times. Later in 1953, in October, I was playing at New York's Paramount Theater with Les Baxter's band.
Louis was the headliner. After the show, Louis and I sat around talking. His suit was sweated through by the end of a performance. We had our trumpets in our laps. I had an old pre-war Besson trumpet at the time. A lot of guys played that model. It was made in France in the mid-1930s.

JW: How did you come to own it?  
AS: I saw it on a club date. I was playing a gold-plated Selmer at the time. It was a beautiful horn. A guy I was working with in the trumpet section on the date was playing a Besson. I asked if I could try it. He said, "Sure." I picked up the horn, popped in my mouthpiece and played it. I loved it and couldn't get its sound out of my head. That night I traded him my gold-plated Selmer for the Besson, which actually looked pretty cruddy. But I loved the sound.

JW: What was wrong with the Besson?
 AS: The lacquer had worn off where your left hand grabs the instrument. I didn’t want to fix it up because I was afraid it would change the instrument’s sound. In an effort to prevent the acid on my hands from continuing to eat through the brass, I began painting the worn spots with red nail polish. This way when the polish wore through, I would see the spot and apply more nail polish to prevent my hand from further wearing away the horn.

JW: What did Armstrong think of your Besson when you sat with him at the Paramount? 
AS: Louis looked at my horn and made a face. He said to me, “Look at your horn, man.” I looked down and noticed all the red nail polish and the shabby appearance. He said, “You shouldn’t treat your horn like that. Look what good it do for you.” So the next day I ran up to an instrument repair guy in New York and had him fix the dents and silver-plate the horn. When they were finished restoring it, the trumpet looked beautiful.

JW: How did it sound? 
AS: A few days later I began to practice on the horn and realized I had ruined a great instrument. I went back to the repair guy and had him strip down the horn. But it remained ruined. So I started playing a Benge horn.

JW: Did you ever tell Armstrong that story?
 AS: No. I never would want to make Louis feel sad.
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"A trumpet is like a woman. If you lose one, just wait patiently and eventually a good one will come your way. And the older ones are a little better if you wait patiently, and a lot less expensive."

- Forrest Buchtel

VetPsychWars · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:49 am Post subject:

Brad361 · Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:59 am Post subject:

KingSilverSonic · Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject:

harleyt26 · Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject:

I don't think it is done in house. I think they send it out. Maybe two - three more weeks it should be back.

royjohn · Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject:

Wow, all these posts and still critical info missing. Info on the 'Net is just not very deep. Be aware, and if you want the real story on anything make sure you dig deep and check thoroughly.

The older nitrocellulose lacquers were thinner. AFAIK, this is the lacquer of the oft-quoted Schilke study. It wears more easily than epoxy lacquers. You can still get a modern formulation of it from Ferree's and probably other places, too.

The lacquer on most modern horns is an epoxy formulation that has to be heat cured. Feree's catalog gives instructions for building a drying cabinet out of an old refrigerator and three heat lamps. A base coat of the epoxy lacquer is sprayed and then cured on and then another coat is sprayed on and cured. This two coat lacquer is much thicker and more durable and probably darkens the tone of a horn from what it would be in raw brass or even with silver plate, which is typically less than 0.002" thick, maybe a lot less . . . .

Careful buffing is fine, but even if you remove only 5% of the horn weight, did a lot of that come from one spot, where there was a big scratch? With my training in jewelry repair, I don't particularly want to buff off a lot of silver or gold weight and then just have to turn around and send my buffer filter and carpet and everything else in the shop to the recycler just to get 80% back on what I buffed off. And the dimensions do change some.

It is VERY labor intensive, but you can burnish out a lot of scratches and you can even fill pits and such with solder (lead free is probably best, still deciding about that) and then plate over that if you are going back to silver. If you're staying with raw brass or brass and lacquer, you'll have to decide between burnishing and buffing. Or maybe find a brass colored solder that might match. Real pain.

Yes, I know, this is splitting hairs, but I am very picky about some of my trumpets. Virtually no one else will do this. If the bell is thick and it isn't some rare thing, buff away, no one will notice. Facts of life. If you want it different, offer to pay for an extra two hours labor in dent removal and burnishing. Tell them to burnish out all the dents and scratches they can and let you see their work before they start buffing. Not a lot of repair guys will want to work with you <LOL>.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

yourbrass · Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:22 pm Post subject:

"Careful buffing is fine, but even if you remove only 5% of the horn weight, did a lot of that come from one spot, where there was a big scratch?"

In the case of my little experiment with a french horn bell flare, it was lots of deep scratches which I put there deliberately. I mean inside and outside the flare, using a coarse file. Then buffing the hell out of the thing. It really surprised me that the loss was not greater, I had a triple-beam scale to weigh it with, to ensure some kind of accurate measure.

It's a case by case basis, some horns are impervious to what needs to be done to refinish them. Others shout "watch out, watch out!" as you gingerly step around what you have to do. They may be ready to disintegrate - it's recognized by experience, and you'd better be listening.

royjohn · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:58 am Post subject:

yourbrass wrote:

Steve Hollahan · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject:

Several tips: I have seen early Bachs, Mt Vernon and Elkhart that are extremely thin, no more than .012" at bell wir that need careful handling. We at Sam Ash normally recommend 1 relacquer or resilver because metal is so thin. I have seen bell tails that have been thinned to paper thickness which will not stand any buffing.

Nitro-cellulose lacquer is extremely thin, but needs two coats to cover properly. Silver is only molecules thick also acoustically friendly.

Some Bach's were made in the middle 80's which used a new baked epoxy lacquer. The factory did this to save money, but results were bad. The factory went back to 2 coats of nitro-cellulose lacquer quickly.

Most horns use a baked on lacquer which is dry shot then baked on in an oven. This is the re-lacquer job that changes accoustics of horn.

SO: know what horn you have and treat it accordingly. Over filing, sanding, buffing cam destroy the integrity of the horn, bad lacquer or repair does the same thing.
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Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Repair and custom work Sam Ash Music, Charlotte, NC

david mickley · Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject:

I had a CG Benge in raw brass that I sent to Tom Green to put a gold tint laquer on. It came back absolutely beautiful with no change in the sound. the laquer is extremely tough and will probably last years. I also had a Lawler C7 in raw brass that later I had silver plated by Tom Green [Tom does the prep work and then takes the horn over to Andersons to be plated]. There was no difference in the sound of that horn either.
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Chicago Benge 33XX
Blessing 1580 [Powell modified] H37434
Getzen Eterna Cornet 800s P02819
Yamaha Flugel 231
assorted other horns