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zackh411
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Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 1053
Location: Saint Louis MO
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 Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Wow... this thread got out of hand quickly. To be fair, from Geezer's point of view (newer TH member, generally unfamiliar with Kirk's "ramblings"), you guys ARE ganging up on Kirk. I've been surfing these forums long enough to understand why, but have had no real quarrel with Kirk, other than to say "That's too much to read."
But really, Geezer is just trying to defend a guy he sees people ganging up on, and even if you are on the other side of the fence as far as Kirk is concerned, there's no reason to be so negative to a guy who is just trying to do the right thing.
Right now, I'm where Geezer was when this all started: I see a bunch of guys being jerks to another guy for not a very good reason.
This thread needs to die.
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 1108
Location: Austin, by way of Germany and Hawaii
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Zackh - so your recommendation is that, when we read information being posted that can cost forum members time, energy and money, especially by someone presuming expertise on a subject, the best thing we can do for forum members is to sit by and keep silent?
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delano
Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 477
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| geezer wrote: |
Everybody needs to back off.
Now. |
Zum Befehl!!
quote geezer:
Or do you also try to pick fights with people who have Down's Syndrome, Schizophrenia, Brain Trauma, and Alzheimer's in order to make yourself feel like a big man?
If you attack Kirk, then you attack me.[/quote]
Now I understand, YOU are the big man and the others here have a false pretention to be. I am afraid you share more with Kirk than only compassion. |
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Retlaw
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 2868
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well I tend to read very few Kirk posts these days.... mainly because it is frustrating when a perfectly good thread is ruined and thrown off course. On this occasion I have not read his post...just some of the comments which clearly reflect the title of his thread. Kirk new before he posted that he would get a reaction....and was crossing the line!
If the forums have no sense of order then every topic under the sun could be raised and in no time at all we would have chaos and the TH would no longer match the original idea. There is a "lounge" where almost anything goes ...
Not many people read the lounge I suspect and that is why Kirk posted in the horns forum ...he would be mostly ignored in the lounge. There is a reason not many go to the lounge...they don't want to read just any old subject. That is why people get upset when that unrelated stuff is posted in "horns"....
Kirk do you ever come back and read the comments posted after you start a thread? If so then you will realise you have caused problems here....do you remember upsetting Trent? Well he is high profile so perhaps you had no choice but to apologise... What about the others you upset? Do they not matter? HOW ABOUT A RESPONSE......? Perhaps you think because you use a fictious name that it doesn't matter and you hide behind it? Perhaps you actually believe you are the captain of this ship? Perhaps you are ..if so I am going to mutiny along with the others.
I am utterly amazed that the mods have allowed so much free rein. TH has lost an enormous amount of high profile qualified experts who were a real asset and worth reading. TH bears little resemblance to the days when some of the worlds finest educators were here. That is what really gets me!!!!
Walter
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 7490
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| musicalmason1 wrote: | Razeontherock:
I read your post (I didn't read much else of this post, it seems as useless as all the others this guy starts)
But I did read yours. |
Ah, some actual conversation here? 
| musicalmason1 wrote: |
Am I correct to assume that your Buescher had snap in pads and they were removed when you had it overhauled? |
Nope. I never got that far. Did quite a bit of research, which started out as looking for a good Tenor sax for my Nephew, at my Dad's request. Considering all things, I did get my trumpet playing figured out with the help of Dave Sheetz, and never played sax.
| musicalmason1 wrote: |
If that is the case, I am sorry to hear that. But, are you sure the pad spuds were actually removed? I have seen Bueschers in my shop that have had regular pads installed over the original pad cup spuds, with divots bored out of the resonator to accommodate the pad spud. some techs will install regular pads in Bue. pad cups because the metal backed snap in pads can be hard to find (but are available). If your sax still has the original rivet receivers on the pad cups, it is possible to install original pads back onto your horn. If the pad cups have been modified, it is still possible, but very expensive. Anyway, it is my opinion that the original Bue. metal backed pads are vital to the Buescher sound, and it is a shame when they are removed. |
Yes, that's it! This is what I learned, and was horrified to be looking face-to-face at the top repairman at Melk Music, having him explain to me what they do to great old Buescher's, and how much work it is grinding all that away. And to make it worse, he then proceeded to talk about how many horns they've done this to 
While I've never played sax to actually know, I have listened to recordings specifically comparing the relevant Bueschers, to other great saxes, including the uber-expensive Selmer Mark whichever (6?). And my conclusion at that time was, that if you really want the classic gritty / soulful sound, a good Buescher is the way to go.
Somehow that seemed relevant, considering where this thread started ...
and I'm glad to have repair people who are knowledgeable here! Maybe you can start a "save the Bueschers Association" or something? And is there any other manufacturer currently doing things in a comparable way, sound wise? |
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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 5134
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: |
Yes, that's it! This is what I learned, and was horrified to be looking face-to-face at the top repairman at Melk Music, having him explain to me what they do to great old Buescher's, and how much work it is grinding all that away. And to make it worse, he then proceeded to talk about how many horns they've done this to
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It's not like they're hard to find....
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/pad-s60.html
Tom
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musicalmason1
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Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Yep, those music medic pads are great. MusicMedic (and Curt, the owner) is a seriously great resource for sax players/sax techs. I don't know why people grind out the snap in spuds...it is so labor intensive, and even if you don't want to install original snap in pads (why wouldn't you?) it isn't that hard to leave them in and get around them. That way at least you have the option for snap ins the next time around. |
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 7490
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Not that I know, but it sure seems to me like the whole "snap in" concept was designed to make the inevitable re-pad job easy. (Whatever happened to if it ain't broke, don't fix it?) |
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veery715
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 3319
Location: Ithaca NY
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| gbdeamer wrote: | | Watch out TH, we have someone who takes the internet WAY too seriously!! |
A whole lot of people, it seems to me. Don't like the OP, don't respond. Thread dies. Simple.
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VetPsychWars
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 5134
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | Not that I know, but it sure seems to me like the whole "snap in" concept was designed to make the inevitable re-pad job easy. (Whatever happened to if it ain't broke, don't fix it?) |
You are correct! Buescher advertized it just like that... snap off the resonator, change the pad, you're done. No floating it in, no laborious leveling it with the tone hole... the player herself can do it easily.
Maybe the current crop of "technicians" don't like that, so they make it so you have to come to them to get a pad replaced? I don't know. I just know that you're right, it's stupid to change it.
Tom
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http://mmccband.org |
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musicalmason1
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | Not that I know, but it sure seems to me like the whole "snap in" concept was designed to make the inevitable re-pad job easy. (Whatever happened to if it ain't broke, don't fix it?) |
My guess would be that it was originally designed to speed things up on the production line. Installing snap in pads on older horns can be difficult because floating (adjusting the way the sit in their bed of glue) isn't an option. So, all the keywork/key arms must be straight and leveled to perfection before the keys are installed. This is a bit more time consuming. But worth it in my opinion. The difference of a metal backed pad vs. a cardboard backed pad would be akin to the difference between a standard weight bell vs a light weight bell in the trumpet world...most would agree that there is a noticeable difference.
I am a trumpet player, but I just love woodwind repairs...I could talk woodwind tech all day. For whatever reason I find woodwind tech to be much more black and white than brasswind, much less mysterious...either a pad seals or it doesn't. All though there still is plenty of voodoo involved...(I'm sure some consider dealing with these snap in resos voodoo) |
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chuck in ny
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Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1836
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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you know i am actually interested in the original subject of how acoustics relate between the sax and trumpet.
i suspect it's the same deal with the sense you are really putting air into the thing, whereas you are only causing it to vibrate back and forth.
it would still be different what with the shape and mass. this would have been a good subject to discuss and not have a fit about. i'm sure there are lessons to be learned from trumpet to sax to clarinet and oboe.
just as happy to have bypassed reedville but it remains a small fascination.
small differences in life and temperament and i might have been a happy jazz clarinet player. this comparative stuff remains relevant.
...chuck |
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Sublmbadfish
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Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 152
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Reading all this nonsensical arguing has cost me about 10x what reading the initial post took me... and takes up an entire 2 pages of a thread.
Which is better? Who wasted more time, me reading 1 post in about 45 seconds, or people drafting responses and and getting back on TH to see who is willing to go head to head in the most important brawl of TH history...or at least the hour. |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 6909
Location: Santa Clara, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Sublmbadfish wrote: | Reading all this nonsensical arguing has cost me about 10x what reading the initial post took me... and takes up an entire 2 pages of a thread.
Which is better? Who wasted more time, me reading 1 post in about 45 seconds, or people drafting responses and and getting back on TH to see who is willing to go head to head in the most important brawl of TH history...or at least the hour. |
I agree the argument is a waste of time. Even for the people who post it is a waste of time. 
I think the original intent of a few was to correct a few facts to help the uninformed, which I assume you are not, from believing the opinions posted as fact. For me that is a valid reason to post a polite rebuttal. |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 2225
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Sublmbadfish wrote: | Reading all this nonsensical arguing has cost me about 10x what reading the initial post took me... and takes up an entire 2 pages of a thread.
Which is better? Who wasted more time, me reading 1 post in about 45 seconds, or people drafting responses and and getting back on TH to see who is willing to go head to head in the most important brawl of TH history...or at least the hour. |
Well, ok. I guess. But you know, this is just an internet forum. Referring to wasted time seems, to me, a bit irrelevant. If we have more important and productive things to do, we should just go do them. Speaking for myself, I get on here when I DON'T have more important things to do, so the time spent is not really "wasted," it's just ........entertainment.
Brad361
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