KTM and overbite - advice please.

[monkeymark]

I have read up a bit on ktm and thought I'd try to teach myself it now while I'm still learning, but I'm having a few problems and wondered what peoples thoughts were on it.

I'm trying to keep my tongue on or behind my lower teeth but I have a bit of an overbite. When I go up the register my tongue has to push harder against the back of the teeth (to keep the necessary arch) in order to get the note, but higher and it strangles the note.

I have tried shifting my lower jaw forward but I just can't play that way.

Any ideas?
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[solo soprano]

TONGUE PLACEMENT

Many theories abound today as to the correct placement of the tongue. Some say to articulate with the tongue in the middle, or almost between, the lips. (Wrong!!!) Others say to articulate with the tip of the tongue behind the upper teeth. (Wrong again!!! Surprised?) Say the syllables "aw-eee-aw-eee" and you will notice that the tip of the tongue stays behind the lower teeth. There are some who have erroneously called this "anchor tip tonguing." But the tip of the tongue should not be anchored rigidly behind the lower teeth, since the tongue must be allowed to float up and down into the correct level for each note. The tip then, should be placed lightly behind the lower teeth, by the top of the teeth, not down at the gum line. The front-center portion of the tongue moves forward to make the attack against the upper teeth."
As explained by:
Bill Knevitt

[monkeymark]

Thanks Solo, that makes it a little clearer.

I'll give it another go in a slightly different manner.

I'm still unsure if this will work for me. If i was to keep my Tongue (tip) on my lower teeth my Tongue would almost have to double over to get close to my top teeth. It would naturally touch just as the pallet starts to go up higher. If that makes any sense at all.

I'll have another bash next practice.
_________________
My first reply was witty and
intellectual but I lost it so you
got this one instead.

B&H 400
Besson 600

[John Mohan]

Your tongue acts as a nozzle on a hose does, and similarly, just as when you completely close the nozzle, the fast water gets cut off, so does the air when you completely arch your tongue to the point where no air can pass. So don't worry about what happens when you reach the top of your range. Just keep practicing and developing. You'll always have a "top of your range" point - but that point will get higher and higher with proper practice and the time to let things develop.

When arching our tongues correctly (and I think you are), our highest notes are limited for most players by the amount of air pressure we can generate with our blowing muscles, and in some cases, by our ability to create tension in our lips to work against the air pressure. (Those rare cases where the player's lips might be the weak link tend to be guys that are built like linebackers and have an unusually high level of air power to begin with).

Personally, when I articulate notes, the front-middle portion of my tongue (not the tip) articulates against the inside of my lips and the front roof of my mouth. My lips are rolled in slightly between my teeth and as such, they block my tongue from coming into contact with my top teeth. But that's just me. That's how it developed for me. Your mouth, teeth and all are different than mine, so it might develop differently for you. Which brings me to the point:

Stop worrying about it and just let it happen. Watch the Tongue. Let it move the way it needs to and it'll teach you more than you'll ever teach it.

Best wishes,

John Mohan

[razeontherock]

What you're experiencing is that no single edict of where the tongue tip should be is workable. People come in different sizes. You may need to bury the tip of your tongue as far down as possible, in the gully at the base of the lower jaw. I keep mine roughly around the gumline at the base of the lower teeth, and that works.

You're also fighting a natural tendency: the tongue supports the lower jaw's necessary forward motion to ascend. That may not be helpful until you get to the extreme of your upper register, but helpful it will be when you co-operate with nature. This is a co-ordinated combination of many factors, and I think it must account for Claude's statement that at first the horn angle may lower to ascend, but eventually it will raise, and descend as pitch descends.

Another variable is the striking point for attacks in the upper register ...

[John Mohan]

A few things:

First, as I practiced yesterday after posting my reply here, I actually paid attention to what my tongue articulates against, and I was slightly wrong with what I wrote. The front of my tongue just behind the tip comes into contact with my lower lip when I articulate and the portion of my tongue just behind the very front comes into contact with the roof of my mouth just behind my top front teeth. No portion of my tongue seems to come into contact with my top teeth, and the tip of my tongue rests lightly against my bottom front teeth when playing high notes, and stays in that area for lower notes, though for lower notes my tongue tip only touches my lower front teeth when articulating notes. And again, as I wrote before, this is how it works for me - it won't be the same for everybody. And in my case, my tongue coming into contact with my lower lip is not a matter of my tongue going through my teeth in any sort of "SuperChops" way - it's that my lower lip recedes back a bit and meets up with my tongue somewhere in the area between my top and bottom teeth.

As razeontherock wrote, don't try to force the tip of your tongue to be in any particular spot (as long as it's not rising into the area of the top teeth - that's a no-no). This is why Claude avoided the term "Anchor-Tonguing" like the plague. It shouldn't be "anchored" anywhere, but rather, let your tongue tip rest lightly in the area behind your bottom front teeth, and let it go where it needs to go in that area. Sometimes it'll be all the way at the top of the bottom teeth.

Lastly, concerning razeontherock's statement that it is necessary for the lower jaw to move forward when ascending, I don't agree with that at all. If anything, my lower jaw recedes as I play higher (but not much). Perhaps for some players it moves forward when going higher (so-called "upstream" players), and perhaps for others it moves forward at some point in their extreme upper register. Maybe I'll try to make mine move forward near the top of my range just to see what happens. But unless something marvelous results, I certainly wouldn't continually try to force my lower jaw to move forward (or recede, or do anything). Like my lips, I leave my jaw alone.

And I never heard Claude say anything about the jaw needing to move forward for higher notes, and to my knowledge he never wrote such a thing. But still, this concept now has my curiosity!

[razeontherock]

Ok, so what is behind Claude's comment (in SA, if memory serves) that as we develop, we'll shift to lowering the horn angle for low notes, and raising it for high notes?

[Jeff_Purtle]

You won't find that anyplace in his books.
The angle of the horn is something that takes care of itself as the player develops. To try make some sort of pivot thing happen can create more problems. Even thinking about it can create problems.

But, the point is to focus on what is primary like the wind power and tongue level and the secondary things like the horn angel, pivot, lips and other things will fall into place with the right exercises done correctly. You also have to listen to yourself too and concentrate on the feel and understand what the "Watch The Tongue" thing was getting at.

One of the things that differentiates the CG way of things is the feel being primary over the sound. What I mean is that the sound will fall into place because the physical technique is working correctly instead of thinking that focusing on the sound will make the technique fix itself.

If you have seen the Music Man and his "Think System" it is really how some people think about playing. For people like myself I needed to be told what to change and not just imagine the sound I wanted.

I changed my embouchure from 1/4 top lip to about 3/4 top lip, my tonguing to KTM, my breathing from the stomach/diaphragm type of breathing to chest up/big breath, my left hand grip, my right hand finger position and striking and lifting high, and my equipment from a MF Jetone to the CG Personal. There was more to it than that. But, someone had to set me straight and show me how to practice.

Jeff
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[solo soprano]

monkeymark,
The FEEL is not developed by theory, but by correct practice. So, go to work and make yourself into the best darn trumpet player anyone ever heard!

[razeontherock]

[John Mohan]

[razeontherock]

[Usedtobegood]

I too have an overbite that has become more pronounced as I have matured HA Anyway I fight my tongue sliding too far forward and cutting off my sound. I also fight my jaw opening too much. Fix for me, and I am still very much a work in progress is to play SA part 1 and 2, Smith, St Jacome, Irons softly and focusing on keeping the tongue arch farther back. I also make sure I K tongue everyday. I think John Mohan says he sets up with his tongue in KTM automatically, so does Bill Hall, and I am working on that also. I just have to make it a habit. Oh, my accuracy has improved immensely....good luck.
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[razeontherock]