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Donjon
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 Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: Cheek puffing - remedies |
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So this is obviously topical at the minute. I've just inherited a number of students from another local teacher. One in particular has a massive problem with puffing cheeks, he also has air pockets forming above and below the MP.
His sound suffers and he's having to blow the hell out of the horn.
Do any of you have any little tips to sort this problem?
I've already asked him to puff his cheeks, then 'squeeze' the air out to get an idea of the sensation.
I'm not really interested in a debate over whether this should be corrected, in my opinion it's a closed case....without muscular support, the cheek tissue will stretch and cause physical harm in addition to the trouble it's causing with playing!
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Cheek puffing - remedies |
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Blowing too loudly with too much air volume contributes to cheek puffing
(although I am not saying that it is the root cause of the problem).
Since playing very softly would limit air volume it should also greatly lessen or even eliminate the cheek puffing.
By playing very softly, he would strengthen his embouchure while his body gets used to the sensation of playing without cheek puffing.
Does he also breath in too deeply, take too deep a breath for the amount of passage he has to play?
If so, he must also learn not to over-inhale in addition to not over-blowing, otherwise he will tense up with over-inhale followed by limited exhale.
I find it impossible to puff my cheeks while forming a correct embouchure.
Likewise, I find it impossible to form a correct embouchure while puffing my cheeks.
So I suspect that the student who puffs his cheeks needs to be taught a correct pucker embouchure.
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1962 Conn 9A Victor Coprion — .485”
1963 Conn 5A Victor — .485"
1953 Conn 34A Concert Special — .463”
1948 Conn 12A Coprion — .463"
Flip Oakes FO1 “Old Style” 17.65 mm,
wide as Schilke 24, deep as Wick 2B
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Donjon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I've been encouraging this too. The quieter playing allows him to overcome the air pressure and keep the cheeks further in.
He does also breath very deep, to an uncomfortable point where he's struggling to keep air in.
He was originally being taught as part of a group. They had a short lesson allocated to them from the local music authority.
I would hate to teach beginners in groups, but why do they have so many fundamental problems? I'm not sure whether it was teacher neglect, or whether it demonstrates how difficult it is to teach in groups.
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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I visited your Home page at
http://kabukimusic.co.uk/home-kabuki-wedding-band/
That photo shows the most vicious bunch of ex-cons I have ever seen in my entire life. 
_________________
1962 Conn 9A Victor Coprion — .485”
1963 Conn 5A Victor — .485"
1953 Conn 34A Concert Special — .463”
1948 Conn 12A Coprion — .463"
Flip Oakes FO1 “Old Style” 17.65 mm,
wide as Schilke 24, deep as Wick 2B
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Donjon
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Donjon wrote: | | Perhaps James (second from the left). We're actually a nice bunch of people |
Nice people. That's the worst kind.
Of course, when I look at that photo, what immediately comes to mind is "Kabuki", since all of you are obviously Japanese 
http://kabukimusic.co.uk/home-kabuki-wedding-band/
(Hope you don't mind these plugs for your wedding band)
_________________
1962 Conn 9A Victor Coprion — .485”
1963 Conn 5A Victor — .485"
1953 Conn 34A Concert Special — .463”
1948 Conn 12A Coprion — .463"
Flip Oakes FO1 “Old Style” 17.65 mm,
wide as Schilke 24, deep as Wick 2B
“Jesus gives eternal life” |
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Donjon
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lh
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jon,
If your student can keep the tip of his tongue down and seal the edges of his tongue against the upper molars, it will be very difficult if not impossible for him to puff his cheeks. Hope all is well!
Dave
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2-5-1
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Pete Anderson
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Cheek puffing - remedies |
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| Conn Collector wrote: | I find it impossible to puff my cheeks while forming a correct embouchure.
Likewise, I find it impossible to form a correct embouchure while puffing my cheeks. |
On the other hand, I personally find it impossible to form an INcorrect embouchure when puffing my cheeks. There are many ways to make this instrument work.
Cheek puffing is not necessarily always a bad thing. But in this case, maybe it is. |
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JazzTrumpet1
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Im my opinion leave I would leave it alone. Doc Reinhardt even used cheek puffing as a correctional procedure. I personally use it in my warm up for a variety of reasons that I couldn't explain in the fundamentals forum because I would have to get into some Pivot System pedagogy.
As for your student focus on a firm flat chin. Some students need some cheek puff if they have a small mouth cavity. The air needs somewhere to go. It beats developing into a neck puff. |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:38 am Post subject: |
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If the student is patient you can have them blow air through a proper embouchure without worrying about making a sound at first. If they then make their lips tighter the sound will almost always follow immediately. If they aren't patient enough to play trumpet you could switch them to tuba, then it wouldn't matter as much.
I can usually get a beginner to play some notes without puffed cheeks in less than a minute.
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Last edited by Brian Moon on Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:55 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| JazzTrumpet1 wrote: | Im my opinion leave I would leave it alone.
As for your student focus on a firm flat chin. Some students need some cheek puff if they have a small mouth cavity. The air needs somewhere to go. It beats developing into a neck puff. |
The somewhere that the air needs to go is to the lips. If it is too much for the lips then it needs to stay in the lungs.
Talk about leaving it alone should really be discussed elsewhere.
From the OP:
| Donjon wrote: | | I'm not really interested in a debate over whether this should be corrected, in my opinion it's a closed case. |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Cheek puffing - remedies |
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| Pete Anderson wrote: | | Conn Collector wrote: | I find it impossible to puff my cheeks while forming a correct embouchure.
Likewise, I find it impossible to form a correct embouchure while puffing my cheeks. |
On the other hand, I personally find it impossible to form an INcorrect embouchure when puffing my cheeks. There are many ways to make this instrument work.
Cheek puffing is not necessarily always a bad thing. But in this case, maybe it is. |
Cheek puffing leads to a blatty sound.
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“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
-Afghan poet Abdul Rahman Pazhwak- |
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JazzTrumpet1
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| That is 100 percent speculation based on your opinion and personal experience and so is my answer so don't try to push it as fact. Many amazing trumpet players play with a puff and that is FACT. |
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Brian Moon
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| JazzTrumpet1 wrote: | | That is 100 percent speculation based on your opinion and personal experience and so is my answer so don't try to push it as fact. Many amazing trumpet players play with a puff and that is FACT. |
That fact is that you can't show me one person that puffs their cheeks that wouldn't sound better with without doing so.
Read the OP. Take your love of cheek puffing to another discussion. You could title the thread:
"Cheek puffing helps you to achieve a good sound" or "The Brotherhood of Inefficient Embouchures" or perhaps "I Love to Blat, Long and Loud and Clear"
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“When fools and folly rule the world, the end of man may come as a rude shock, but it can hardly come as a surprise.”
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian Moon wrote: |
That fact is that you can't show me one person that puffs their cheeks that wouldn't sound better with without doing so.
Read the OP. Take your love of cheek puffing to another discussion. You could title the thread:
"Cheek puffing helps you to achieve a good sound" or "The Brotherhood of Inefficient Embouchures" or perhaps "I Love to Blat, Long and Loud and Clear"
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Preach it, brother!
_________________
1962 Conn 9A Victor Coprion — .485”
1963 Conn 5A Victor — .485"
1953 Conn 34A Concert Special — .463”
1948 Conn 12A Coprion — .463"
Flip Oakes FO1 “Old Style” 17.65 mm,
wide as Schilke 24, deep as Wick 2B
“Jesus gives eternal life” |
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frenchtoaster
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Brandon Ridenour has a full blown cheek puff in the low register and a decent amount in the staff. |
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| frenchtoaster wrote: | | Brandon Ridenour has a full blown cheek puff in the low register and a decent amount in the staff. |
Thanks for mentioning Brandon.
I examined this video very closely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sHAJmp_x_w
It is obvious that Brandon is deliberately choosing to puff his cheeks at some times while not puffing them at other times.
At 3:22 he plays a very low note without puffing his cheeks at all.
Many other times in that video he is playing in low, middle, and upper registers without puffing his cheeks.
But there are many times when he is puffing his cheeks for notes in the lower register, showing that he is doing it deliberately for those occasions.
I speculate that he is deliberately doing it to change the tone of those lower notes on those occasions?
Why else would he puff his cheeks for some low notes but not for other low notes?
In one video, I can't find it now, Brandon does a flexibility exercise in which he rapidly alternates between low notes and middle notes, playing every middle note without cheek puffing, but playing every low note with cheek puffing.
His puffed/not puffed bounces so rapidly that it must put an extra strain on his embouchure.
_________________
1962 Conn 9A Victor Coprion — .485”
1963 Conn 5A Victor — .485"
1953 Conn 34A Concert Special — .463”
1948 Conn 12A Coprion — .463"
Flip Oakes FO1 “Old Style” 17.65 mm,
wide as Schilke 24, deep as Wick 2B
“Jesus gives eternal life” |
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Conn Collector
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Some people in another forum are posting about some people who are able to play well in spite of puffed cheeks.
Suppose a man straps 10 pounds of weights to his legs and then succeeds in running a 50-yard dash in record time.
Does that mean that the weights on his legs helped him to run faster?
No. Doesn't mean that at all.
Does that mean that the weights on his legs had no effect on his running ability?
No. Doesn't mean that at all.
It means that the runner was able to succeed in spite of the impediment placed on his legs.
And just imagine how much faster he could have run without that impediment of the weight placed on his legs.
Some people in another forum are posting about some people who are able to play well in spite of puffed cheeks.
Does that mean that puffed cheeks help a player?
No. Doesn't mean that at all.
Does that mean that puffed cheeks have no effect on the player?
No. Doesn't mean that at all.
It means that those players are able to play well in spite of the impediment that they have placed upon themselves.
Just imagine how they would play even better if they didn't puff their cheeks.
"Even better" could be something that the listener doesn't even hear, such as the player's required amount of effort to perform at that level of playing, or the player's amount of playing before needing a rest.
So the OP of this thread is quite justified in looking for a remedy for a student's puffed cheeks.
I don't want to fight anyone.
I just want to present the other side of the story in a civil manner without going near that other forum.
God bless.
_________________
1962 Conn 9A Victor Coprion — .485”
1963 Conn 5A Victor — .485"
1953 Conn 34A Concert Special — .463”
1948 Conn 12A Coprion — .463"
Flip Oakes FO1 “Old Style” 17.65 mm,
wide as Schilke 24, deep as Wick 2B
“Jesus gives eternal life” |
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